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# 13985 - 37mm Projectile M51

I am a scuba diver and was helping a lake association (Lake Minnetonka, western suburb of Minneapolis) with their annual clean up dive, while on the bottom I recovered what appears to be a 37mm projectile. Stamped on the brass is LOT - 0 P-1-40 1944-37MM M51 B1. I guess my question is, is the projectile inert? I would hate to make a mess of my mantle. Also is this anything of value? I am a scuba diver not a weapons collector.

Sir- The M51 projectile is an Armor Piercing type made with a solid, hardened steel projectile with no explosive charge. I don't think these had a tracer cavity in the back, but even if they do and the tracer compound was present, it is basically the same stuff as in a highway flare, not explosive. John Spangler

# 14023 - Mauser HSC Pistol
Steve T

Mauser - HSC - 7.65 - 800,XXX -

I just picked up a Mauser HSC pistol with a serial # in the 800,000 range. It has one waffenamt with the #135.It also has two eagle over the letter"N" marks at other spots. Caliber is 7.65.What is the significance of the eagle/N marks? Also can date of manufacture be determined by the serial# range? What branch of the German armed forces used this pistol? Thanks, Len Scibilia

Steve, The Mauser HSC has always been one of my favorite pocket pistols, they are well made and I like the looks and design. Nazi HSC pistols were made from 1941 until the end of the war, serial numbers began at 700,000 and ended at 951,000.

135 is the German WW-II Heerswaffenamt inspector's mark on arms produced at Mauser Werke AG, Oberndorf am Neckar, Germany.
The Eagle over the letter N is a commercial test proof and it should be located in 3 places.

1 - on the right side of the chamber (barrel)
2 - on the right side of the trigger guard
3 - on the right side of the slide near the muzzle.

The eagle over WaA135 should be on the left side of the trigger guard where it meets the frame.

As to what branch of the armed forces your HSC was used by, HSC's issued to the Kreigsmarine had a Kreigsmarine acceptance stamp on the front grip strap or the left side of the trigger guard. HSC's issued to the police had an eagle over an x inside a circle with the letter L to the right stamped on the left side of the trigger guard. If your HSC has none of these special markings, the military branch that it was used by can not be determined. Marc

# 14019 - Stoeger 22 Luger
Matt, Lawrenceville, GA

Luger - CAL..22 L.R. - 4 And 1/4 - Don't Know - 47139 -

Manufactured in the U.S.A. by STOEGER ARMS CORPORATION S. HACKENSACK, NEW JERSEY PATENTS PENDING it has two small bird in a sight aperture in front of the rear site This gun has been in my family for awhile and I was wondering when it was made it also has some tiger wood grips on it believed to be original any information would be great as to its year and how rear it maybe thanks

Matt, Stoeger introduced a .22 Caliber Luger in the early 1970s. The Stoeger Luger was of the same general pattern as the original Luger Parabellum, but it used a simplified version of the toggle lock and the frame was an aluminum forging with the barrel inserted into the front and secured by a cross-pin. Two basic models were offered, a standard and a target model which had an extension at the rear of the frame for an adjustable target rear sight. Both models were available with 4.5 inch or 5.5 inch barrels. No mention was made in any of my reference books as to what original grips for these pistols looked like. Values are listed in the $150 or less range and I doubt that the grips will have much affect. References indicate that Stoeger ended production of this model in about 1985. Marc

# 13984 - Old Revolver “Electric” Brand

I have this revolver, silver or nickle, 5 shot, about a 2 1/2 inch barrel. The only readable marking is "electric is stamped on the top of the barrel. Bigger than 25 cal but smaller than a 32 cal. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Sir- Your pistol is a "suicide special" made circa 1870-1900. These were very cheaply made guns of poor quality, and the collector term for them implies that they were sufficiently durable and accurate for a single short range shot, or possibly would blow up if fired at all.

"Electric" was the name on some of the .32 caliber revolvers, probably made by Forehand & Wadsworth. "Electric" stuff was just starting to reach the market in the 1880s and would have been a good brand name to use at the time.

Collector value on these is modest, often less than $50 in poor condition but maybe $100-135 for a really nice example, but there are not many people who collect these. John Spangler

# 14008 - Ebiar Pistol
Jerry, Pine Bluff, AR

Eibar - Spain - Fast Semi Automatic - 38 - 6 Inches - Stainless Steel - 81885 -

Circle with E A and fast on the barrel. Pearl Handles My Husband passed away seven months ago and he had this gun for a long time. He was ninety and was in the Navy in 1942. He never used this gun and I don't have any use for it. Is it worth anything or should I just give it away?

Jerry, Eibar is the location of many Spanish gun manufacturers. With the information that you provided, I can not give you any specific data about your pistol. My guess is that it is one of many inexpensive guns manufactured in Eibar Spain in the first half of the last century. Many of these guns were manufactured using inferior quality steel and are not considered safe to fire. There is not much collector demand for this type of thing, I would expect to see one being offered at a gunshow in the $100 range. Sorry that I can not give you better news and tell you that your pistol is worth thousands of dollars. Before you give up and give it away, you should take the pistol to a local gun store or pawn shop and see if they are interested in purchasing it. Good luck - Marc

# 13983 - Pinkerton Used Iver Johnson Champion Shotgun?

I was going to buy a shotgun supposedly used by a Pinkerton [armed guard or detective agency]. On the receiver it says champion iver johnson fitchburg, mass I think it also said ammo-cycle work on the barrel as I said it has rr1c It also has a metal badge in the stock I dont want to over pay for something like this .. so what would it be worth ?

Sir- The Iver Johnson company made single barrel shotguns, most of which were the "Champion" model.

In my opinion 99.9% of the otherwise cheap, junky, unsellable shotguns on the market with badges or markings associating them with some Express company, prison, or law enforcement agency are outright fakes.

A junky old single shot shotgun can be found at gun shows for $50 or less, and sellers are delighted if someone wants to buy them at any price.

One that has been faked up into some exotic "stagecoach" gun or prison gun, etc is worth whatever a cunning seller and gullible buyer can agree on. I detest the former and pity the latter. If you don’t know your diamonds, you better know your jeweler. John Spangler

# 13982 - Charles B. Hoard Rifle Maker
Don New York

My wifes family is from Watertown, N.Y. The Grandfather made rifles for the Union Army and could anyone please help us on getting information ? Thank you Don Greene

Don- Charles B. Hoard and his contract to make Model 1861 .58 caliber rifle muskets are mentioned in several books, but usually only in the same manner as a dozen or so other contractors with similar contracts.

In general, the contracts were awarded in the early days of the Civil War, and then all the contractors tried to get the tools, gauges and fixtures to make the guns, and the raw materials, and skilled workmen needed to fill their contracts. Nearly all ran into problems of some sort, and eventually the government reviewed all the contracts and the progress made and canceled some, changed others, and allowed some to stand as written. I believe that this was done by the Holt & Owen board, but the name may not be correct. Their proceedings were recently republished by Mowbray Publications and are available at a very reasonable price.

The few details on the guns themselves are mentioned in Robert Reilly's U.S. Military Small Arms 1816-1865, and William Edwards' Civil War Guns (where he has a pretty good summary of the board's actions as well.

The guns were made to be 100% interchangeable with all other M1861 muskets so the only visible difference is the name on the lockplate. Indeed, since all parts are interchangeable, it is likely that many now have the lockplates of one maker assembled with parts by one or more other makers into a complete rifle. Reprints of the manuals for the M1863 musket (nearly identical to the M1861) are widely available if you want to see all the parts involved.

These "Watertown" marked musket turn up on the market fairly often, and if you keep looking, you will probably find one. Apparently about 12,800 were eventually delivered on this contract. We may or may not have a Model 1861 .58 caliber musket for sale on our Antique Longarms catalog page if you want to check there.

Hoard's Armory also made about 2,000 Freeman .44 caliber percussion revolvers, which are military style, but no specific military contracts are known for them.

Although the Watertown Arsenal was in the same city, I doubt if there would be any information in their archives.

You might want to check with the County Historical Society or Library to see what they can tell you, or what archives they might hold, and also the New York State Archives. Hope that helps. John Spangler

# 14007 - Unknown Firearm
Ken, Gulfport, Ms

S&W - Unknown Not On Weapon - .32 Long - 4'' - Blue - 2467 -

none How old is this weapon. My father-in-law bought the for my wife's mother a long time ago and now she wants it fixed up so she can shoot it. I figure with such a low ser# it has been around awhile and it not for sale. It is not in bad condition but not great maybe 50%

Ken, without knowing what model that you have, it is impossible for me to tell you the year that the revolver (I am assuming it is a revolver) was manufactured. If the only markings on the weapon are something like "32 S&W Long CTG", you may not even have a S&W firearm at all, the markings may only indicate the caliber. In the first half of the last century some unscrupulous manufacturers purposely marked their firearms in an ambiguous manner to try to fool unwary buyers into thinking that they were getting a genuine Smith and Wesson. Many of these guns were manufactured using inferior quality steel and are not considered safe to fire.

The .32 S&W Long cartridges are getting difficult to find now. If your mother in law wants a firearm to shoot, I would suggest that she buy a modern firearm that is chambered for .38 special. The ammunition will be much easier to find and you can be much more sure that she is getting a firearm that is safe to fire. Marc

# 14005 - Broomhandle With Welded Stock Slot
Rich, Bucks County, PA

Mauser - C96 - Other -

I recently received a Mauser C96 pistol. The handgun is in beautiful shape for it's age. I was wondering if it was popular at one time to weld or ''fill-in'' the stock mount on the back of the pistols frame? This pistol appears to have been altered in such a way. I was wondering if there is any way to remove this? Thanks-Rich

Rich, at one time there was a lot of confusion about the legality of shoulder stocks for handguns. While it was never illegal for the pistols to have lugs or slots, some people assumed it was and foolishly altered their guns. Originally possession of a pistol and a shoulder stock constituted possession of was considered to be the same as a sawed off shotgun. Later changes to the laws removed those from that category as long as it was original stock of the correct type for the pistol.

My guess is that you pistol was welded by someone in a mistaken attempt to comply with regulations. Without seeing the damage that was done, it is hard to say if the pistol can be repaired. I would suggest that you take it to a gunsmith or machinist to see if the welding can be milled out.

Good luck, Marc

# 13981 - Artillery Base Plug (inert Fuze)
Jason, California

I was going through a box of stuff in my garage and found a primer or fuse that I found several years ago on a beach near San Francisco's Ft Mason. It is threaded and made of brass and appears it would thread flush into a large shell casing. The item in question is stamped American Ord Co 1898. The word PLUG has been overstamped on the base. Does the term PLUG refer to it being inert. Any ideas???

Jason- I am pretty sure this is just a plug used in some artillery shells to plug the base of the shell where they could use a tracer element if desired. For cheap target practice it was common to use "Blind Loaded and Tracer" (BL&T) or Blind Loaded & Plugged" (BL&P) where they use a regular shell body but filled with inert material and no fuze. The former used a tracer, and the latter used a plug instead of a tracer.

This part should be totally inert, but it may be used as a plug in an explosive projectile in lieu of a tracer element, so while the plug may be inert, that does not guarantee a projectile it is attached to is also inert. Don’t mess with this stuff if you are not sure about what it is! John Spangler

# 14004 - What Kind Of Ammunition?
Chris Okc OK

Geroco - 21 - .22lr - 9 Inches - Don't Know - 204647 -

Left side of barrel says Cal 22LR bottom of barrel says Germany, Bottom of butt says GEROCO MOD. 21 Germany. The hand grip was replace with oak I would like to know if this is a centerfire or rimfire, looking at the inside of the barrel the pin appears to hit the edge of the cartridge but I cant tell for sure, being a novice gun user I would like to know so I purchase the correct ammo. any help is appreciated.

Chris, the answer to this one seems pretty obvious but for liability reasons we can not answer questions of this type. I suggest that you take the pistol to your local sporting goods store. I am sure that they will be able to set you up with the proper ammunition. Marc

# 14001 - Canadian Law Advise
Bill, New Westminster, BC, Canada

Mauser - P-38 - 9mm - ? - Blue - 6965B -

Can the relative of an old war vet, that has passed away, sell a German p-38 Mauser that has no paperwork to an average person here in Canada by any legal means or is this gun just a hot potato not worth touching with a 10 foot pole.

Bill, is this a trick question? I am not sure why you would think that we are qualified or able to give you advise on Canadian laws. I suggest that you contact a Canadian lawyer. Marc

# 13980 - Remington Shotgun Made On Browning Patents

Hi I was wondering if someone can help me with some info on my gun? On the barrel it says, MANUFACTURED BY THE REMINGTON ARMS CO.ILION.N.Y.U.S.A. BROWNING'S PATENTS OCT.9.1900.DEC.17/01 SEPT.30.02 JUNE 18.03. And on the other side of the barrel it is stamped R.P. with a circle around it. The serial Numbers on the bottom of the gun by the feed is 67739 Can you tell me the year and what ever info you have on the gun. Can you tell me a value on this gun in good condition and it works?

Tom- Sorry, we cannot help much with that one. Remington bought the rights to American production of Browning's semi-auto shotgun design after Winchester decided they did not want to get into the semi-auto business which might kill their very successful pump action line (the Model 97, also designed by Browning). This semi-auto design eventually became the Remington Model 11, but I am not sure exactly when it was introduced. It was made for the foreign market by FN in Belgium as the Browning autoloader and also under license by Savage as their Model 720. Winchester probably kicked themselves for years for passing up the opportunity to get the rights to this design!

Remington guns usually have a 3 or 4 letter code on the barrel that identifies the date of manufacture. It is based on the word BLACKPOWDER which converts to numbers (Google Remington date code and it should get you an explanation on the details.) John Spangler

# 13999 - Remington 51 Value
Paul, Plattsburgh, NY

Remington - Mod. 51 - .380 - Standard For This Gun - Blue - PA5773 -

Anchor right side top trigger guard. Looks to be in VG condition. What is the value of this handgun?

Paul, you have a very nice little pistol. The Remington Model 51 was designed by J. B. Pedersen who also designed the "Pedersen Device," for converting the M1903 Springfield rifle from bolt action to a semi-automatic weapon. When the Model 51 was designed, hundreds of experiments were made with hand molds to determine the correct shape, length, and pitch to provide the most nearly perfect average grip. The Remington 51 is considered to be the best-balanced, most-instinctive pointing pocket pistol ever made.

Remington manufactured the Model 51 in .32 ACP and .380 ACP calibers. Approximately 65,000 pistols were produced from 1918 to 1927 when the model was discontinued. Workmanship is of extremely high quality, and the pistol is well-shaped for instinctive shooting. The design utilizes a delayed blowback system to reduce the apparent recoil force, making it pleasant to shoot. The M51 has a grip safety, which also acts as a cocked indicator. If the grip safety is flush with the grip, the pistol is not cocked, if it stands out from the grip, the pistol is cocked. The safety catch on the left rear of the frame can only be set to the safe position when the hammer is cocked.

Model 51 production called for very precise machining and fitting of intricate components. Unfortunately, there were not sufficient buyers prepared to pay the extra cost which was required to build this complicated design so the pistol production was discontinued.

Blue book values for Model 51 pistols are quite high, especially for pistols chambered in the rarer but much less popular .32 caliber. Although these are excellent pistols, it has been my experience that collector demand for them is low. I usually feel lucky when I can sell a Model 51 chambered in .380 for over $300. There is much less demand for pistols chambered in .32 caliber and I usually try to avoid purchasing them at all. Marc

# 13979 - Turkish 8mm Mauser Ammunition
Carlsbad, NM

Howdy-- we have an antique store out here in Carlsbad, NM and we have run across an old wooden crate full of oddball rifle cartridges, marked 1939/TOC/7.9/FS. The "O" in the TOC is actually a little mark inside, like a small star. They are still in green canvas cartridge belts and in these little brass stripper clips of five each. No one out here has seen anything like these, and some are guessing Nazi ammo, others say they are British. Can you give us any clues? thanks,

John- That is actually Turkish made 8mm Mauser ammunition. (Also called 7.92 x 57mm or 7.9 x 57mm or 8 x 57mm Mauser, but it is all the same thing, just different terminology among various nations and civilian/military folks).

It was made in 1939 and is corrosive primed. Some report that it still shoots okay, while others say it is not real good quality stuff. There is a lot of it on the surplus market over the last 10 years. Last time I saw it was not very expensive. John Spangler

# 13978 - Recoil Pad For Trench Guns

I have been searching for a military issue slip on recoil pad for the Win. 97 Trench Gun. I once saw a Win. Model 12 Trench gun with a rubber slip on recoil pad that was reddish in color with U.S. and the ordnance symbol on the side. Any idea how to get one or was there something soldiers used. I have seen several military photos of trench guns with some sort of slip on recoil pad but the photos are all black and white and not very clear.

Jason- The ONLY recoil boot that was made for U.S. military use was the black rubber slip on type for the M1903 rifle for use when launching rifle grenades. As a serious collector of U.S. military shotguns for over 25 years, with about 30 in my collection and all the documentation I could find on them, I have NEVER seen mention of use of ANY recoil pad by the U.S. military on shotguns (at least up to the 1980s). Nor have I seen any in photos.

I suspect the one you saw was a commercial pad that someone added US markings to in order to make a quick profit or turn a defect into a plus. John Spangler

# 13998 - Santa Fe 03A3

Remington - 03-a3 - 30-06 - 22'' - Blue - 2182213 -

bolt stamped with a ''R'' barrel says Santa Fe Springfield sporter mk1 model 12013 I have a rifle the receiver says Remington 03-a3 and the barrel says Santa Fe Springfield sporter mk1 model 12013 it is chambered in a 30-06. what is it? a Remington 03-a3 or a Springfield? what is the value of this gun? it shoots like a charm and is most accurate!! deadly on elk at 400 yards!!

Tommy, glad to hear that your rifle is such a good shooter. It sounds like you have a Remington M1903A3 that was sporterized by Santa Fe arms. Technically the brand of a rifle is determined by the manufacturer of the receiver, so if I were logging your rifle into my books, I would call it a Remington. Maybe for the model I would say something like ``M1903A3 Santa Fe Sporter``.

Santa Fe / Golden State was one of the big surplus dealers/importers in the golden age of military surplus arms circa 1960-64 when millions of military surplus rifles were dumped at unbelievable prices. Remington Rolling blocks were 62 cents a pound, .303 Lee Enfields were retailing at $9.95 in local department stores; M1917 Enfields were $29.95 and M1 Garands made in 1941 were being sold in 100% original condition with about 98-99% finish for $79.95 after being brought back from England where they had been sent as Lend Lease supplies in the dark days of 1942.

With the market flooded with surplus military arms, one good way to sell some of them, and squeeze a little more money out of them was to “sporterize” them, or alter them in some way to create new models that may appeal to some buyers not turned on by the straight military version.

I don't know of anyone who collects this kind of sporterized firearm so the value of your rifle will be as a shooter. I would expect to see a rifle like yours selling at a gunshow in the $250 to $350 range depending on condition and time of year with prices rising the closer it gets to the opening of deer season. Marc

# 13996 - Is My 94 Pre `64?
Frank, Fullerton, Ca,

Winchester - Model 94 Carbine - 30-30 - 19 In - Blue - 2873217 -

None Could you please tell me if this is pre 1964? Thanks

Frank, a management change at Winchester in the late 1950s led to an extensive and extremely controversial redesign of Winchester firearms in 1964. 1964 is regarded by many shooters and collectors as the year the "real" Winchester ceased to be. Consequently "pre-'64" rifles command higher prices than those made afterwards.

The Blue Book of Gun Values indicates that the cutoff number for Pre '64 Model 94 Winchesters is 2797428. Sorry to give you bad news but my references indicate that your rifle was manufactured in 1965.

One way that I learned to be able to quickly spot a Pre '64 Model 94 is the presence of the link pin stop screw on the bottom front of the link (the flat part ahead of the trigger guard). On the Pre '64 , it holds the link pin, Post '64 models that were manufactured before the early 1980s use a horizontal link screw that doesn't require the stop screw. Marc

# 13977 - Showalter Muzzle Loading Rifle

I have a 32 Cal Percussion Long Rifle Muzzleloader dated roughly around the 1900's the only marking on the Rifle is J Shoewalter. From what my father had told me the muzzleloader was made in Brookville [Pennsylvania] and there were only 100 made. If you have more information on this rifle I would like to know. Thank You.

Ken- John Showalter lived from 1814 until 1883, and began making rifles in Lancaster, PA, around 1840. He operated in Brookville, PA circa 1861-1883.

John's son Isaac lived from 1852 to 1905 and was listed in an 1890 directory as making rifles in Brookville. He probably worked much longer than that, but only one directory was found to document it. This information is from Frank Sellers' American Gunsmiths.

I suspect that the father and son made many more rifles than just a hundred. They were very late in the muzzle loading era, and lingered well into the cartridge era and I suspect demand for their product was very modest after circa 1870 when breechloaders were both popular and inexpensive. John Spangler

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