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# 13864 - Is My FN 1922 An Early War Pistol?
5/29/2010
John Kenner LA

1922 - 32 Semi Auto - 4.25'' - Don't Know - 28371A -

On the left side of the pistol just in front a little above the trigger guard it has a German Eagle over swastika- and close by to that it has a WaA140 twice( 1 on slide- 1 on frame) The Serial # is 28731a I have to say what a wonderful site and very informative. Question that I have is...Is this gun prewar or was this the last batch that was made at the factory. Any information regarding this gun would be very helpful. I have inherited this item and is not what I collect and would like to get a fair value assessment for the sale. Thanks John

Answer:
John, glad that you like our site, we hope that you will feel free to come back often and purchase large quantities of rare and unusual treasurers ;-).

Your question an easy one to answer because there are at least two ways to determine that your pistol is late war production. The first is the German Army Acceptance Stamp. Early pistols are stamped with eagle over "WaA613" after about 3000 pistols were produced, the stamp was changed to eagle over "WaA103". The WaA103 stamp was used for about 32,000 pistols and then it was changed to eagle over "WaA140" which was used on about 90,000 pistols. WaA140 is the last stamp used and it is also the most common.

The other way to determine when your pistol was manufactured is the serial number. German occupation FN 1922 serial numbers were a continuation of the numbers used on pistols manufactured before occupation which had reached around 70000. The use of only digits and no letter lasted to over 200000. After that the serail numbers were limited to a maximum of five digits and a letter was added, "a" with the second 100,000, "b" with the third 100,000, and "c" when production exceeded 300,000. Hope that this helps. Marc


# 13863 - Argentine 1911
5/25/2010
Chris, Houston, TX

Colt - 1911 Policia Federal - .45 - 5'' - Blue - C167414 -

The sidearm has the Argentine symbol on the right of the slide along with the words ''Policia Federal Colt Automatic Calibre .45'' and the rampant Colt symbol. Above the trigger is stamped ''Government Model and the serial number: C167414.''.'' On the right side of the trigger guard itself is the number 20. The number 7521 is stamped on the top of the slide. On the left side is: ''Colt's P.T.F.A. Mfg. Co. Hartford, CT USA.'' ''Pated April 20 1897 Sept. 9, 1902 Dec. 19, 1905 Feb. 14, 1911 Aug. 19, -9--(rubbed off) On the left side of the trigger guard is a ''W'' and, below that, a triangle. About 85% of the original bluing is still there and has the cross-hatch wooden grips, not double diamond. I would be interested in any information, including year of manufacture and a current price on the piece.

Answer:
Chris, the Colt Company provided Argentina with pistols starting in 1914 and ending in 1927 when the Argentines insisted that Colt set up a manufacturing facility so they could make their own.

Your pistol has a Colt Commercial serial number (serial number preceded by the letter C) and dates to 1917. It was also given to the central government police (Policia Federal) rather than the Argentine Army or Navy.

The value of your pistol will depend on condition and it can range from around $400 to over$1500 depending on condition and whether the pistol has been refinished. Marc


# 13846 - Burgess Hand Grip Slide Action Rifle
5/25/2010
Ron, State College, PA.

Burgess - Unknown - Unknown - Blue - NOT MARKED -

I have a Burgess rifle. It is not a shotgun. It is a rifle with a hand grip slide action. No one seems to know anything about it. I thought it might be a prototype gun of some sort. I would appreciate any insight on what the gun may be. It does not have a model or serial number (or I don't know how to find it) so I realize you can't do much with the info. I have provided. May I send some detailed photographs of it with your permission? Thank you and please advise.

Answer:
Ron- In the beginning, prior to John M. Browning’s creation of the Model 1893 and later Model 1897 pump (or slide) action shotguns, there was basically one choice for a slide (or pump) action shotgun, and that was the one invented by Christopher M. Spencer, inventor of the famous Spencer carbine of the Civil War. The Spencer was big, heavy and clunky, but it worked.

Andrew Burgess was a talented firearms inventor, and had designed lever action rifles for Colt and Whitney, and in 1892 decided to start his own company to make a slide action shotgun of his design. This was a unique design that did NOT use a slide on the forend, but rather had a trigger guard and pistol grip that would slide back and forth on the wrist of the stock, with a much shorter stroke than the usual forend slide. This design also eliminated the need for the operating rod extending forward from the frame to the barrel, and Burgess even made some of his shotguns hinged at the front of the frame so they folded in half for easy concealment. Flayderman notes that only a few thousand of the Burgess shotguns were made before Winchester bought the company in 1899 (a business strategy to eliminate competition for their Model 1897 shotguns), and production stopped.

Flayderman further notes that “Manufacture was almost exclusively confined to 12 gauge shotguns with rifles quite rare.” That suggests that you have one of the few rifles that was made, and I would think the value would be several times that of the Burgess shotgun. However, like many of the lesser known firearms of the early cartridge period, sometimes the only thing scarcer than one of these rare guns may be someone who wants to buy it. There are lots of Colt or Winchester Collectors, many Sharps collectors, and some Marlin collectors, but after that you are pretty much left with general collectors who do not have the same lust to get “one of every model” and thus they tend to buy stuff that strikes their fancy. If you find the right buyer (probably through one of the major auctions or a good website) you may do quite well. Anyway, at least I think it is a really neat gun, but it does not fit into my collecting goals. John Spangler


# 13845 - Revolutionary War Brown Bess Muskets
5/22/2010
Rick, Munster, IN

Brown Bess - 1st Model - 46'' - Blue -

Dir Sirs, I am involved in American Revolutionary War reenactment and I am a member of the 84th Royal Highland Emigrants and have a few questions regarding the 1st Model Brown Bess. From the reading I have done the typical 84th RHE soldier would have had a variety of weapons including a Brown Bess Musket ranging from the early 1st models through 2nd model with bayonet, Scottish pistol, back or broad sword, Scottish dirk, Sgain Dubh and tomahawk. Part of the reenacting involves us talking to the visitors about the everyday life, tactics, uniform, weapons among other thing. We would like to show that the 84th RHE had a variety of 1st model through 2nd model Brown Bess Musket available to them in 1780 but we do not have any hard documentation to prove this. Our regiment will be coming up for inspection this year and must be historically accurate which leads to my questions. 1. Which model Brown Bess would the 84th RHE have likely used in 1780? 2. If 1st models were used which version of the Bess is more likely 1728, 1730, 1742, 1756? 3. All of the firing locks had makers marks. If the 1st models were used which makers mark would have been here I the colonies? Any other information you can provide on the 84th RHE would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Rick Henson Munster, IN

Answer:
Rick- I really admire living history reeanctors, and their interest in sharing history through their work. They have an amazing dedication to learning the details and getting them right.

Unfortunately, I do not know enough about the fine points of Brown Bess musket procurement or issue to be able to help.

However, there are folks who probably do. I recommend you contact the Brigade of the American Revolution, which seems to be the main Rev War reenactor organization. One of the foremost scholars on Brown Bess history is Erik Goldstein, curator at Colonial Williamsburg who has written several articles and a book on the subject (the book having been just released by Mowbray Publishing). He also put together a great display featuring Brown Bess muskets from the Colonial Williamsburg collection, but I suspect that has been replaced by another temporary exhibit in their museum, so he really knows his stuff. John Spangler


# 13860 - Unique War Trophy Pistol
5/22/2010
Sean San Jose CA

D`armes Des Pyrenees - Unique - 765 Mm - N/a - Don't Know - 355902 -

The side says. Manufacture d`armes des pyrenees hendaye le veritable pistolet francais unique marque deposee. cal 765mm S.F.M. The handle says UNIQUE and has a round circle with a lion in it. Like a type of crest or something. My grandfather took this gun off of a dead German soldier in ww2. I was wondering what kind of gun it is and its value.

Answer:
Sean, Unique pistols were manufactured by d'Armes des Pyrenees. Pre-1945 Unique pistols were for the most part copies of Browning designs. The model 10 was the first Unique, it was introduced in 1923.

There is not much collector interest in Unique pistols except for those that were issued to the German military during WWII. These pistols can be easily identified because they have German military acceptance stamps (eagle over WaD20 or eagle over WaA251) located on the upper right side of the frame to the rear of the right grip and the German military test proof (eagle over swastika in a circle) at the right side of the barrel near the muzzle. You did not mention that your pistol has any markings like this so it is probably a pre-war commercial model. If your pistol is a pre-war commercial model and there is not documentation of it's WWII history like capture papers from when your grandfather brought the pistol home, value will be in the $200 range. If the pistol does have the markings that I mentioned and / or capture papers, value can go as high as six or seven hundred dollars. Marc


# 13856 - Don't Guess
5/18/2010
Tim . In

Marlin Lever Action - 1892 - Unknown - 23 1/2 - Blue - 158518 -

I would like to know the caliber of this rifle. I have a 30-30 that has a larger body. The bore on this rifle looks about the same or a bit larger. The ejection chamber is shorter than the 30-30`s.I`m guessing its a 32 cal., but no markings like the 30-30.

Answer:
Tim, "guessing" the caliber of a firearm can be a very dangerous course of action which could result in personal injury or even death. The best and safest way to determine the caliber of your rifle is to take it to a gunsmith and have him pour a cast of the chamber. Marc


# 13840 - Inland M1 Carbine Finish
5/18/2010
Thomas

Inland - M - Carbine - .30 M - Carbine - Standard Carbine Not Altered - Blue - 533,521 -

all marking are Inland This early carbine is blue. Are markings are crisp and un-polished. No evidence of refinish. Were early Inland M - carbines blued?

Answer:
Thomas- During WW2 the primary finish used on U.S. military small arms was the familiar “Parkerize” process that results in a phosphate type finish ranging in color from gray to green depending on how it was applied, temperature, and subsequent materials applied.

In addition to Parkerizing, a process called “Du-Lite” was also widely used. This produces a black oxide finish similar to what we usually call a “blued” finish.

In addition, sometimes arms were refinished at various field level activities and some of those used a process that resulted in a blue-black finish over the original parkerized finish.

You will need to find someone with greater knowledge of early Inland carbines to tell you for sure if yours has the correct original finish or not. John Spangler


# 13829 - Unusual Markings On Old Long Arm
5/15/2010
John, Highland, MI.

??? - ???? - ???? - 42 '' - Rusty - NONE -

Sunshine circle with lined rays in front of a B on top of barrel behind the notched sight and a feather with a circled R behind the hammer plate. Kentucky Long Rifle or Tennessee Mountain Gun ? I know during the Revolutionary & Civil Wars, rifle manufacturers would just engrave/cast markings that were coded so as not to give the enemy any information. I wish I could send a picture to you via this website.

Answer:
John- I have never heard the theory that makers disguised their identity with obscure markings. You really need to have someone inspect this gun in person, and they may be able to give you a much better idea of its origin, age, and value. John Spangler


# 13855 - Mod 64 219 Zipper
5/15/2010
Dennis Bliss, Idaho

Winchester - 64 - 219 Zipper - Blue - 1189411 -

Whets the age and value

Answer:
Dennis, the Model 64 was first announced in the March 1, 1933, Winchester price list. The first deliveries of Model 64 rifles to warehouse stock occurred in February and May of 1933. The Model 64 was an improvement of the earlier Model 55 rifle, which used the same action as the 55 but incorporated several design changes including increased magazine capacity, sharply tapering barrel, pistol grip instead of straight stock, forged ramp for front sight base on the barrel, front sight cover, and lighter trigger pull.

My records indicate that your rifle was manufactured in 1941. Value depends greatly on condition, since you did not mention anything about condition, it is hard to tell you what your rifle is worth. Winchester offered the Model 64 in several calibers including .219 Zipper, .25-35 WCF, .30-30, and .32 Winchester Special. Without knowing the condition, I still can tell you that the .219 Zipper chambering is very rare in a Model 64. The blue book says to add 300% for rifles chambered in that caliber. Marc


# 13853 - Winchester 190 DOM
5/11/2010
Steve

Winchester - 190 - .22 - 20? - Blue - B1944422 -

Hi folks - I have a model 190 B1944422 and I was wondering how to identify the year it was made. I am at sixstring.com@wowway.com thank you tons!

Answer:
Steve, I was not able to come up with allot of information about Winchester 190 manufacture dates. The best that I can do is tell you that Winchester manufactured about 2,150,000 Model 190 and 290 rifles from 1967 to 1980 when the models were discontinued. Marc


# 13816 - Leather Preservation
5/11/2010
Garey, Santa Monica, CA

Blue -

I have the typical 45 Caliber pistol WW2 leather holster. What is the BEST WAY to preserve the leather so it does not dry out, without destroying it's value ?? Thanks, Garey Thanks

Answer:
Garey- There are many schools of thought, and some scientific data and many opinions, most of them conflicting on this subject. First, there are ways to treat leather being used on a regular basis, like saddles or other horse tack. Saddle soap or similar treatments are commonly used, with good results cleaning the leather and restoring some moisture. Sometimes in the past, a nasty substance called neatsfoot oil was recommended, but nowadays its use if very much discouraged as it tends to “burn” the leather over time, darkens it and is just generally nasty stuff.

Unlike saddles and harness being used frequently, leather gear for collectors should be kept dry and not have stress put on it. Keeping dirt off of it helps prevent deterioration.

One side in the preservation wars is adamant that if something has survived this long satisfactorily, it is best to do nothing at all.

The opposition claims that it is essential to treat the leather with stuff to lubricate the fibers, or polish the surface or something else. Then they break into squabbles over the merits of British Museum Leather Dressing, Pecard, Black Rock, or other “stuff.” Most seem to be gooey or greasy to the touch when applied, but when worked in they seem to be a more acceptable. In my experience, Black Rock seems to remain a bit greasier. Pecard seems nice, but in cold weather it exudes a white film that wipes off okay.

Owners are free to adopt the treatment they like best, or join forces with the “don’t mess with it” crowd, but we cannot guarantee which is the right one, or will best protect the items. My personal preference leans to the medical philosophy “First, do no harm.” That can also be used to justify laziness to avoid any sort of treatment efforts.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. John Spangler


# 13815 - Bayonet Marked St. Etienne
5/8/2010
Wendy Wichita, KS

22 1/2'' Blade - Other -

Ys Elienne Guillet 1871 M5560 on outer case I have this bayonet & was wondering if you could give me some of the history on it like where it came from, type of bayonet, if it was used in any wars, etc. Will it ever be of value? Where can I sell it? Thanks for your help.

Answer:
Wendy- This is a very frequent question, but we will answer it again. The French marked their bayonets on the top flat of the blade from the 1840s to the 1890s. The marks included the place and date of manufacture. St. Etienne was one of the major makers, and many people think that they have found something that was presented to or owned by a Lieutenant Etienne based on a misreading of the maker name. The month and year of manufacture (July 1871) completes the marking. Yours is probably the Model 1866 with the slid brass handle, while the later Model 1874 had wood grips, a brass pommel and steel crossguard. There seem to be many more of these bayonets than there are buyers, or collectors of French arms thrown away in precipitous retreat. Values are very modest, usually around $75-150 depending on condition and if the scabbard (if any) has matching numbers. John Spangler


# 13844 - Colt 1917 Value
5/8/2010
Beverly, Tucson, Az.

Colt - DA - 45 - Four And One Half Inches - Blue - 110061 -

The butt of the frame is stamped U.S.Army Model 1917. It has a oval ring for a strap to go through in the same location. I have the holster that goes with it. The pistol goes completely in it and a flap comes over and snaps. It is to be worn on a belt. My Grandfather said it was a side arm for a sentry and it was used very little. He got it from his doctor who took it as payment from a patient . I think it was around 1947. He always said it was a WWI Army issue. I would like to know the value of it for selling it. Thank you for your help.

Answer:
Beverly, in WWI the U.S. military did not have enough M1911 pistols to meet their needs, so they contracted with Colt and S&W to produce revolvers. It was specified that the revolvers must be chambered for the 45 ACP rimless cartridge to avoid ammunition supply problems. The problem of rimless cartridge in revolver was solved by designing a spring steel clip that slipped over the extractor groove and held three cartridges. These pistols served in World War I and later many saw service on into World War II. As you have been told, during WWII many of these revolvers were used by second line troops such as sentries, plant guards and even post office personnel.

Collector interest in both Colt and S&W 1917 revolvers is high so values are good. We usually sell examples in the condition that you are describing in the $1200 to $1400 range. We often see holsters that have been modified or cut down. If the holster is all original US military issue and dated with a WWI date, add up to $200 depending on condition. Marc


# 13842 - Winchester 72 Replecement Scope
5/4/2010
Rick, Weems, VA

Winchester - 72 - 22 - Blue - NONE -

none My father ,who is 85, got this gun with it's scope in about 1940. It sat at his home until after WWII. He did some plinking with it, then put it up. It's mine now and my boys love firing it. The scope that was bolted to the barrel by 2 curved mounts is no longer functional. Where does one get a scope and mount for an old classic like this? Thanks, Rick

Answer:
Rick, Winchester manufactured the model 72 from 1938 to around 1959, total production was over 161,000. The model was not serial numbered which makes it difficult to pin down a manufacture date for individual rifles. Standard rifles came with aperture or open rear sights so the scope was probably added at sometime by your father.

OldGuns.net sometimes sells period scopes for old 22 rifles. Keep an eye on our accessories page, that's where we will list them when we have them. Marc.


# 13812 - Italian Model 1871/87 Vetterli-Vitali Bayonet
5/4/2010
Brett, Colorado Springs, CO

Italian - 1871/87 Vetterli-Vitali Bayonet? - N/A - N/A - Blue - LP8488 -

A `40` at the top left of the bottom of the pommel, along with an `A` at the top right, and a single small `o` at the bottom middle. I am hoping to find out when this bayonet was made, what factory it came from, if it possibly saw combat, what rifle it would have been issued with, and in general everything I can about it. I have uploaded images of the blade and its sheath to photobucket. http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/hh82/LinkzEin/Italian%20Bayonet/ The blade is nine inches long, and from what I could find online, an Italian Model 1871/87 Vetterli-Vitali `Shortened` Bayonet. It was recently given to me by my girlfriends father. His father gave it to him, unfortunately the rifle it was paired with was left to his sister and I do not have access to it. Is there anything you can tell me? I would like to apologize if this an inappropriate question and thank you for any help you can give, if indeed you can. Regards, Brett

Answer:
Brett- Congratulations on doing some good research and posting the photo before asking for our help. You have correctly identified this item as one of the Italian Model 1871 bayonets that has been modified.

The Italian Model 1871 bayonet for their Vetterli-Vitali rifle could be a collecting specialty by itself. Originally these were made with a long blade (a whopping 20 ¼ inches long) with a hook on the crossguard. There was one variation with a short spring for the catch, and also a second type with a long spring for the catch. Yours was one of the ones made with the long spring.

Originally these were made with the large nut on the base of the pommel, like yours, but a subsequent variation was made with the base of the pommel smooth, and only in the short spring style, this was known as the Model 1871/1887.

Some of all types of the long bayonets were later shortened to a 12 inch blade length, some retaining the hook, others having it removed. Some had the muzzle hole bushed to reduce the diameter for use on later rifles.

Around 1916 the Italians got busy modifying the bayonets again, this time shortening blades to 9 inches. This results in variations having different combinations of features including: short or long spring, bright or blue finish, muzzle rings with or without a notch, and hard rubber or wood grips. This one is usually called the Model 1871/1887/1916.

Just to add further flair to this fine cutlery, there are examples known with etched blades and scabbard mounts which were believed to have been done for the Spanish Fascist Party.

I cannot help with exactly when or where it was made, but Torre Annuziata arsenal (in Torino or Turin) was a big maker and used a crown over TA logo. These bayonets were used through WW1, and perhaps by Italian colonial troops as late as WW2. Hope that helps. John Spangler


# 13805 - Colt SAA J.W. Carson, Laredo, 101
5/1/2010
Robert

Colt - SAA 1873 - 45 - 4.75'' - Blue - 82173 AND 81514 -

Gun has brown checkered grips with the colt horse emblem. A name is carved under the right rubber grip: J.W. Carson Laredo Texas 1898. The gun is a 45 cal.4.75'' barrel with a nickel frame the 82173 serial number and a blued barrel, cylinder and back strap. The back strap to the grips has the serial number 81514 on the bottom. The patent numbers on the left side of the frame are Sept. 19, 1871, July 2, 1872 and Jan 19, 1975 A number stamped on the loading gate is 590 and the words Colt Pt F.A. MFG. Co Hartford CE USA is stamped on the top of the barrel. The right side of the frame has a stamping of 101 on it. This looks like an purchaser type stamping not from the factory. The serial number leads to the 1882 time frame but I don't know anything else about the person on the grips JW Carson or the 101 stamping on the frame. Any thoughts about why there are two serial numbers and any other information about other markings on the gun.

Answer:
Robert- Colt Single Action Army revolvers are a highly specialized field and frankly there is a lot we do not know about them. The combination of a nickel frame and blue barrel and cylinder is an odd combination and leads us to suspect some parts may be changed, or that you are mistaking the frame finish for a case hardened finish that has lost its colors and turned silvery color, or maybe has been polished.

I have no idea who J.W. Carson might be, but some research in census records and the like on the geneaology websites may turn up some info. The 101 on the frame may POSSIBLY be related to the famous 101 Ranch, or it may be just some sort of rack number from a prop shop or something unsexy from a much later date.

In any case, it sounds interesting, but needs someone with more expertise than us to evaluate it. John Spangler


# 13839 - Remembering Back - Auto Ordnance 1911A1
5/1/2010
Tyler Xenia Ohio

Auto Ordnance - 1911 A1 - 45 - 5 Inch - Don't Know - TGM10522 -

On the side it says model 1911 A1 U.S. Army I got this gun after my grandpa past away and wanted to know how old it is

Answer:
Tyler, if I remember correctly, Auto Ordnance 1911A1 pistols were sold in the late 1980s, 1990s time frame as an expensive alternative for those who could not afford, or did not want to pay the extra money for a real Colt. The Auto Ordnance pistols seemed to me to be one of the better quality choices of the many 1911A1 knock offs that were on the market at that time. There is no collector demand for the Auto Ordnance 1911A1 copies so value is still about it was 20 years ago, in the $300 to $400 range. I think that your grandfather's pistol would be a good choice for recreational shooting or self defense. Marc


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