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# 13942 - Winchester 52
8/31/2010
Justin, Brighton, Mi

Winchester - 52 - 22 - 26'' - Blue - 89602C -

Original 1955 scope. I have this gun and I'm wanting to sell, in good condition, with original scope. Proof Steel. Been packed away in it's case for 30 some years. Can you tell me what the value of this gun would be today?

Answer:
Justin, many consider the Winchester Model 52 to be Winchester's finest .22 caliber bolt action rifle. The Model 52 was introduced in 1919 and about 125,233 were manufactured by 1979 when production ceased. The Model 52 was available in many different barrel types and configurations including the standard target model, heavy barrel target, extra heavy barrel (bullgun target rifle), international match and sporter. There are sub-varieties identified by the letter following the serial number, which indicated a major design change. The early "pre-A" version had a slow firing pin, while the "A" model had a "speed lock". The "B" model was very popular before and after WW2 among target shooters and introduced the "marksman stock" on the target guns. The circa 1950s "C" model had a much better trigger and bedding system and is still prized by some shooters. The "D model introduced in the 1960s was single shot with solid receiver bottom (earlier models all used detachable box magazines) and had a factory installed accessory channel for hand stops, palm rests, etc. Unfortunately the triggers on most of the later "D" models were junk. I think the final model was an "E" model but do not have details on it. The 52B and 52C sporters are beautiful guns, and highly accurate, plus pretty pricey. The recent Browning made copies are about as good and often available under $500 making them a real bargain for someone looking for a high class shooter. Model 52 values range from $250.00 to over $2500.00 depending upon configuration and condition. Send us some pictures, we may be interested in purchasing your rifle. Marc


# 13918 - Vietnamese Montagnard Musket
8/31/2010
Eric, Macon, GA

Unknown - Unknown - Unknown - 36 Inches - Don't Know - NONE -

Tiek Stock Let’s say (hypothetically) an American serviceman, while participating in clandestine operations around Laos and Cambodia back in the late 1960`s, was given a musket by a Montagnard tribal chief as a reward for heroism combating the communist. If that American had actually smuggled that old hand made musket back into the US, probably around 1971 or so, what might be the issues? Could the musket be advertised and sold on the open market, or would the musket be something that had to be kept put away in a closet (assuming it actually existed). The musket could never be fired (at least not while I’m standing within 50 feet!) and would probably only be of value to a collector, or perhaps for cultural study -SC- apparently the ‘yards (as the GI’s used to call them) made these weapons in wood fired foundries, having been taught by the colonial French at the turn of the century.

Answer:
Eric- As far as I know, there were no restrictions on bringing home muzzle loading firearms during the Vietnam war, or on bows and arrows. Cartridge firearms had to be accompanied by what are commonly called “capture papers” authorizing the individual to take home things, usually Mosin Nagant or SKS rifles. Muzzle loaders are treated as “antiques” and exempt from most firearm laws, so I see no legal reason why anyone with one of these souvenirs could not display or sell it.

Collectors give Vietnam vets and souvenirs much more respect now than they received when first returned to the U.S., and while prices are not high, they can bring reasonable amounts, far above what the value as an “non gun” might be.

Apparently much of the contact with the “yards” was with Special Forces troops, and there was a great deal of mutual respect between them, and a shared hatred of the Communists. Many of the Montagnards later fled to the U.S. as refugees to escape genocide after the Commies took over. Read more about them and their struggles at http://burnpit.legion.org/2010/06/help-save-the- montagnard-peoples/ As for the lingering wounds inflicted on our brave troops by the idiot liberals (including some of Obama’s pals), the best revenge is at the ballot box in November. Every Vietnam vet and their families need to show up to throw the socialists out of power before they do further damage and totally destroy our great country. Hope that helps. John Spangler


# 13907 - W. Berry Musket (Brown Bess?)
8/28/2010
Jon, Quartzsite Az.

Unknown - Flint Lock/ Changed To Cap And Ball - 75 - 44`` - Don't Know - N/A -

Has (W.Berry) engraved on the side just behind the hammer. Has a silver fox pressed in on the side of the butt. I would like information on the maker and or the original owner of the gun. From what I have learned it is 1700th or 1800th century. Did it have anything to do with Francis Marion the Swamp Fox?

Answer:
Jon- The only makers named W. Berry that I can find are from the Buffalo, NY, area in the mid 1800s, far after the date I would expect for a .75 caliber musket with a 44 inch barrel. That sounds like a gun made circa 1750-1820, and my guess is that it may be a Brown Bess style musket. A fox was sometimes used on guns made for or sold by the Hudson’s bay Company in the fur trade era, but they usually tended to be much shorter. I am almost certain that this has no connection with Francis Marion, the “Swamp Fox” who fought the British in the Carolinas during the American Revolution and was the inspiration for the Mel Gibson movie “The patriot.” We really would need to see some photos on this one. Email us for instructions on sending photos if you want more info. John Spangler


# 13941 - Compact Off-Duty Police (COP) Derringer
8/28/2010
Bobby, Katy, Tx

COP - Derringer - .357/.38 - Derringer - Stainless Steel - 003586 -

COP Inc,Torrance, CA. USA What is history and is it of any value? It is in mint condition and in original box.

Answer:
Bobby, COP stood for Compact Off-Duty Police. The derringers were made entirely of stainless steel, except for the grips, which are made of checkered wood. They held 4 - .357 magnum rounds in a little firearm that is only slightly larger than the average .25 ACP pistol. The derringers are double action with an internal hammer and four firing pins. Each time the trigger is pulled, the hammer lines up with the next firing pin in the sequence, firing the bullet in that chamber.

Values in the bluebook for COP derringers range between $200 and $350 depending on condition. Marc


# 13936 - S&W Info
8/24/2010
Luia ,Montreal ,Que, CANADA

Smith And Wesson - (military And Police 1949????) - 38 Spl - 2'' - Blue - 183293 -

serial number 183293 W214549 Please : Model and year of production ?

Answer:
Luia, sorry but you did not send enough information for me to be able to determine the model. Smith and Wesson stamped the serial number on the bottom of the butt, on the back of the cylinder and on the bottom of the barrel. They also stamped an assembly number in the cylinder yoke, and on the front under the area covered by the cylinder yoke. If the 183293 is in these locations then it is the serial number. The frame would have been made sometime between 1909 and 1915. The barrel may be a replacement or the original barrel may have been cut off. Check to see if the barrel has the same barrel on the bottom near the frame. Marc


# 13906 - Afghan “Enfield Cavalry Carbines”
8/24/2010
Curt Rhymer

Blue -

Hello There is a guy at Kabul Market Camp Eggers Afghanistan. He sells allot of guns, and will tell you if fake or not. However, he sells these ''Cavalry''enfields with saddle rings, and a connected ramrod. Is there such a weapon? I have never saw one. Thanks Curt

Answer:
Curt- Thank you for your service to our country.

Most cavalry arms of the 19th century had a sling ring attached to them, usually on a long bar attached to the lock screws or some other location. In use, the trooper would wear a leather strap over the shoulder with a snap riding at the lower part of the sling. The snap would attach to the carbine, so that it will not get lost when bounced about on horseback. When dismounting the trooper would have his hands full with other things, but when they were finally on foot, the carbine would be there with him.

The “captive rammer” was also common on arms for the mounted services, as a muzzle loading weapon is instantly turned into an awkward club if you don’t have a ramrod to load it again. Loading while mounted is difficult enough, but there was a real danger of loss of the ramrod just by falling out while riding around en route to battle. Sometimes the captive rammer was attached with a chain and a sliding ring on the ramrod, but other times it used a pair of “C” shaped links and a sliding ring that was more restrictive but worked well enough. In the U.S. similar arrangements were used on the Model 1836 and 1842 cavalry pistols and also the Model 1847 series of musketoons.

The British adopted a Pattern 1856 Cavalry Carbine which was rifled and had an adjustable rear sight, and had a saddle ring on the left side and a captive rammer with the “C” style attachment. There was also a Pattern 1858 version made for colonial issue (to the untrustworthy native police or militias) which was smooth bore with a fixed rear sight, and had a similar ring and captive rammer. Thus we can say that such guns were originally made, however, the odds are astronomical that the ones being sold today are the Khyber Pass copies. John Spangler


# 13883 - Burnside Carbine, Nickel Plated
8/21/2010
Lionel Raymond, Bristow, VA

Burnsides Carbine - 5th Pattern - .52 - 21 -A- /-'' - Nickel - 19271 AND MORE -

S/n 19271 on breach block: s/n 10415 on cartridge receiver block -SC- nipple block is brass, appears it may have been ''machined'' for the piece. Trigger is nickel -SC- trigger guard and cartridge receiver are ''brown''. No ''saddle ring'' or provision for one. Wood fore-stock. What I have been told is that this is a ''sea service'' piece, because of the nickel plating. I have never seen another like it. What do I have?

Answer:
Lionel- I am not aware of the Navy using any Burnside carbines. Both your serial numbers are close (but not real close) to carbines issued during 1863 or 1864. Nickel plating was not a commercially available process until about 1867-1868 when the army tested it on some rifles. The Navy began nickel plating many of their revolvers around that time as well.

My guess is that your gun was one that was nickel plated for use in parades by a veterans group like the Grand Army of the Republic, or Loyal Legion or possibly even a Confederate veterans group. Due to the alterations, I would think that it would be a very hard one to sell, and probably only bring about half of what an unaltered example might bring. John Spangler


# 13954 - 1873 Winchester Information
8/21/2010
USA

Winchester - 1873 Lever-action Rifle - .32 - Other - 343173B -

king's improvement 1860 - 866 What is age plus value of a Winchester lever action 1873 serial 343173B?

Answer:
The value of a firearm depends greatly on condition, markings and special features. You did not send me any of this kind of information so I don't have allot of data to base my answer on. The best that I can tell you is that your rifle is probably worth somewhere between $100 and $15,000.

You can find the date of manufacture by looking up your serial number in FineOldGuns.com Winchester dates of manufacture program. There is a link on the FineOldGuns.com menu strip that runs down the left hand side of our website.

Good Luck - Marc


# 13882 - British East India Comp Flintlock From Afghanistan
8/17/2010
Dan, Hermiston, OR

British East India Co, - 1825? - 9'' - Don`t Know - NO SERIAL NUMBERS OTHER THAN

Flintlock Pistol, with Rampant Lion, to the left of a crown over an 8. Total length about 15''. Octagonal Barrell, about 9''. Appears to be a British East India `1825` Flintlock, flat butt with ring (and chain still). I picked up this firearm in Afghanistan. From my general research these were likely made after 1796, but are undated. It appears that the flat butt models were made later in production. I have seen two on line that are each marked with a `3` under the crown, whereas mine has an `8` under the crown marking to the right of the rampant lion. Since production was after 1796, how the model number of 1825 was determined (if accurate) is of interest. Generally, I`m trying to narrow down the likely date and place of manufacture given that production was over several years and identify the meaning of the `8` under the crown, as well as obtain any other information on it. Thanks.

Answer:
Dan- Thank you for your service to our country. In my opinion nearly all the souvenir pistols coming out of Afghanistan are recently made for the “tourist” trade. Regardless of the very convincing looking markings, they were made in the Khyber pass region in the last few years. We encourage people to read what we have posted on the Afghan arms market at http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/darra.htm and http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/afghanold.htm Hope that helps. John Spangler


# 13939 - Looking For Magazines.
8/17/2010
David, Federal Way, WA

Geroco - SM - .25 - 2 1/2 '' - Blue - 132368 -

Where can I find a magazine(s)?

Answer:
David, sorry but I do not of a good source for magazines for your pistol. I recommend you check with Gun Parts Corp (the old Numrich Arms people) at the following URL:

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/

Gun Parts Corp has just about everything. If that doesn't work, try posting it on our free "Wanted" page at the following URL:

http://oldguns.net/submitwn.htm

Good Luck, Marc


# 13880 - Snaphaunce Use In American Colonies
8/14/2010
Frank

Blue -

We found parts of a snaphaunce firing mechanism in a archaeological dig in Maine in a 1630s context......can you give me an of an ~ date range that these firearms were in use in colonial America, before being displaced by the next generation of firearm? Tx Frank

Answer:
Frank- That is a very difficult question to answer. First, most of the settlers were not wealthy, and either purchased, or issued (from company or royal sources) with pretty much obsolete arms to start with. Further, settlers on the wild frontier of the Massachusetts colony, as Maine was until 1820, would have kept any firearm in service as long as it could be made to work. If not reliable enough to be the primary means of defense, then perhaps marginally adequate for family members to hunt game, or shoot at varmints bothering the crops or livestock. In the frequent wars of the colonial era, it is not impossible that arms captured from an enemy might have been brought home as souvenirs.

Probably the best overview of the subject would be Harold L. Peterson’s “Arms & Armor in Colonial America.” As a former bigwig in the National Park Service he was privy to all the research and archeological finds. Subsequent research in M.L. Brown’s “Firearms in Colonial American: The Impact of Technology 1492-1792” might be a better resource, but it is extremely detailed.

Apparently the snaphaunce, a precursor to the true flintlock, was well known by 1600, but around 1650 more conventional “flintlock” designs were gaining popularity, except with military users who thought the snaphaunce was more reliable. Thus there was a lengthy overlap between the snaphaunce and flintlock, but my estimate (after a very brief glance at Brown) is that by the early 1700s the flintlocks were pretty well standard. However, we must return to the idea that the settlers did not always have the most current weapons, and would retain them as long as possible.

And one final possibility, is that you have found a relic from the first gun collector in America! John Spangler


# 13937 - Henri Pieper Rifle Info
8/14/2010
Angel Tacomo Wa USA

Loyal Arms Co. - 60080 - Rifle - Other - 60080 -

Barrel has on the inside @ A PIEPER Bye then an X an 1 and a V then 307g with arrow pointing down I cant fint any information on this gun. Can you help?

Answer:
Angel, it sounds like your rifle was manufactured by Pieper and marketed under the Loyal Arms Co. name. A quick Google search provided the following information on Henri Pieper at Answers.com:

"Henri Pieper was a Belgian gunmaker operating between the late 1860's and his death around 1898. By the time of his death he had grown his gunmaking firm to quite a large size. The company was reorganized after his death by his heirs (family). It went into receivership again and was refinanced around 1906 and continued until the firm was wound up in the early 1950's. The company names are variations using the family name Pieper and the guns most closely identified with the firm are pistols that are marked with the trade name Bayard, although they also made shotguns and rifles. I happen to own a very high grade Pieper shotgun made around 1903 with fantastic leaf & vine engraving, along with several others shotguns by Pieper."

Hope this helps, Marc


# 13933 - Sporterized Krag Rifle.
8/10/2010
Pete Sunnyvale CA

Krag - 1899 Carbine - 30.40 - 30 Inches - Blue - 867844 -

I have Krag 1899 30.40 that I have had for 20 yrs and I would like to sell it. What I know about it is very minimal. It looks like it may have a new stock prior to my getting the gun. It has a peep site for a rear site. I do have photos that I can share.

Answer:
Pete, from your description it sounds like your Krag has been modified or "sporterized". Krags that are not in original condition are not hard to find and there is minimal collectors interest in them. I would expect to see a rifle like the one that you are describing for sale at a gunshow for less than $300 (maybe allot less). Good luck - Marc


# 13878 - Allen & Thurber Pepperbox
8/10/2010
Bob Eddy, Des Moines, Iowa

Allen & Thunder - Unknown - Unknown - 5'' - Don`t Know - CAN`T FIND -

Pistol has 6 rotating barrels, and a hammer that appears to come down onto a pin that seems to need a cap in order to fire. The trigger when pulled rotates the barrel one space and then when fired repeates itself. Loading must be done from the front end of each barrel. Has a patent date of 1846 and MFg was in Worchester. Where can I find information concerning this pistol?

Answer:
Bob- Although there are books on Allen firearms, the most readily available and generally useful reference is the book we use on a daily basis, “Flayderman’s Guide to Antique American Firearms and Their Values.”

Flayderman has seven pages on various Allen pepperboxes. In addition, Flayderman has lots of pepperboxes from other makers, and many other types of gun made by Ethan Allen and the company that carried on his name.

Copies of Flayderman’s Guide can be ordered from our catalog page with other books for arms collectors: http://oldguns.net/catbookgun.htm John Spangler


# 13876 - Afghan Jezail
8/7/2010
Mez Jones, UK

Afghan Jezail - Unknown - .55in (approx) - 43.25in (approx) - Rusty - None -

Lock plate stamped ''1817'' (sans serif numerals, probably fake (?), ''8'' seems to be upside-down) - SC- plate also bears emblem, appears to be a crude rampant lion representation, perhaps an attempt to mimic EIC company's post - 816 emblem. Lock plate has been cut, fairly crudely, in area of caplock nipple -SC- tunnel to breech still visible, but nipple missing. Mechanism seized if still intact. Barrel appears old, very rusty, octagonal throughout with eight grooves, peephole backsight and small foresight. It has five bands, of which two appear to be iron/steel and three of brass (possibly retrofits) -SC- two of these bands hold the fore sling swivel in place. Barrel also shows heavy copper corrosion near lock area, just forward of tunnel to breech. Minimal decoration -SC- brass bands are filed and cut nicely but would seem to be later than the rest of the gun. Trigger guard missing and trigger loose, apparently disconnected from any surviving mechanism. Since this piece was apparently obtained some time ago (still waiting on details, but I'm told it has spent about 50-60 years in the UK), is it likely that the lock plate numerals are faked? If so, what does that mean for the rest of the piece? The barrel appears to be rather older than the lock and the brass bands (urgh), but without doing a lot of rust removal I can't find any details on either lock plate or barrel. Should I attempt to remove this rust, and if so, how? Finally, can you recommend any sites, especially fora, to try to obtain more information about the gun? Thanks, gentlemen.

Answer:
Mez- First, let me express my thanks and appreciation to everyone in the UK for the customary outstanding performance as we jointly fight radical Islam terrorists. They hate all us infidels and want to kill us all, and we must never give in to their terror, tricks or inducements. We must never foolishly assume that negotiation or compromise is a substitute for Victory.

Jezails, or “camel guns” as they are known by most collectors are a strange field, with no good sources of information that I know of. These were all locally manufactured, to individual tastes, perhaps with some regional and traditional major design characteristics as general guides. However, all that seems to have been diluted by the availability of materials, either raw material to make parts, or previously used parts which could be salvaged.

Although originally used as actual weapons for warfare or hunting [the neighbor’s camels, goats, or sheep?] these have evolved over the years into largely ceremonial badges, or to more often, items to be sold to gullible tourists.

The key to separating the “old” or “real” guns from the “tourist” guns seems to be how well they function, if at all. This is usually evident in the placement of the trigger, which must be precisely located to properly move the sear to release the hammer, and the placement of the trigger guard so that the trigger finger will fit in comfortably and still have room for the trigger to move properly. After that, it comes down to a practiced eye looking to see if all the parts seem to have been together for along time, if aging of various parts seems to match, and if any repairs are actually honest repairs, or if they merely cover up clumsy workers forcing parts together to make a complete gun. Remember, any gun that could be made by primitive craftsmen 150 years ago can be made by primitive craftsmen today. And, the profits are much higher selling guns to gullible tourists than making “shootable” guns for your neighbors who are probably dirt poor themselves.

As far as “fora” (the correct plural of forum, not “forums” which most Americanized English users would say) I do not know of any at all that even mention jezails. The only market for jezails seems to be among people wanting souvenirs, or looking for decorative pieces, and they are not a large population.

I would assume that just about any jezail on the market today is a relatively recent “tourist” gun, and worth only modest amounts. If proven to be an original, and you can find someone who wants to own one, the value would be higher, but strictly a matter of whatever a willing buyer and seller can agree on. John Spangler


# 13929 - EM-GE Derringer
8/7/2010
Russell, Cocoa Beach, Fl

EM-GE - Mod .5 - .32 - 2.5'' Derringer - Blue - NOS# -

Captured by my uncle Frank somewhere near Bastogne France in WWII. He was with the 167th Infantry. Has a coin purse type case with his name and service number on it. Would love to learn anything about it as no one I have asked has an answer and he has long passed. Thank you

Answer:
Russell, EM-GE was founded in Germany after the end of the First World War. They marketed sporting guns, airguns and cheap handguns prior to 1945 when operations ceased. After WWII members of the Gerstenberger family who had escaped the Russians settled in western occupation zones and founded Gerstenberger & Eberwein.

Gerstenberger & Eberwein manufactured starting pistols and cheap revolvers in the early 1950s. More recently they marketed a line of cheap .22 rimfire and .32 center-fire handguns under the names Em-Ge, G&E, Omega and PIC.

Sorry to have to tell you that there is no collector interest in EM-GE firearms, values are in the $50 range. Marc


# 13926 - Need Model Number
8/3/2010
Donna, Canfield, OH

Savage - Automatic Pistol - .32 - Other - 204555 -

I recently came into possession of a Savage .32 Caliber Automatic, Smokeless, Rimless Pistol in mint condition that was manufactured in 1918 - according to the Savage Arms Division of the Emhart Corporation in Westfield, Massachusetts in a letter kept with the pistol dated September, 1975. It is in the original (if somewhat worn) box and came with a small box (50) of ammunition in the original box. I would like to find out what it is worth. Any idea? Thanks in advance for your help.

Answer:
Donna, you did not tell me the model of your pistol, this complicates things. One would think that the letter that you have from Savage would indicate what model the pistol is. However, since Savage only manufactured three models of semi- auto .32 pistol, it is not hard to cover all of the possibilities.

  1. The Model 1907 was manufactured from 1910 to 1917 and it was available in.32 or .380. It came with a blue finish, fixed sights, exposed cocking piece (hammer) and metal grips on early .32 ACP models or hard rubber grips on all others.
  2. The Model 1915 was manufactured from 1915 to 1917, it was similar to Model 1907, with a grip safety, but it had no visible cocking piece.
  3. The Model 1917 differed from the Model 1915 in that it had a spur hammer (cocking piece) and trapezoidal grip frame, it was manufactured from 1920 to 1928.

Your manufacture date of 1918 does not match up with any of the date ranges in my reference books so there is a discrepancy somewhere. Values in the blue book for the Model 1915 are the highest, they range from about $200 to all most $600 depending on condition. The Model 1907 comes in second, values range from $100 to about $500 for it. The Model 1917 comes in last with values between range from $100 to about $300. Marc


# 13875 - Maynard 1865 Rifle
8/3/2010
Mike Jacques / Michigan

Maynard - Carbine - 40 ? - 32`` - Blue - 26366 OR1873 -

Stamped Either 1073 or 1873 on left side of receiver. 1865 on the metal on the bottom of stock as well as the # 26366. Also has a rear tang elevation sight. There are some markings below the 26366 number hard to tell what they are. Is this a Civil war gun or a later sporting version. I know it's the second version but that's about all. It's in good shape.

Answer:
Mike- Maynards are hard to figure out without a hands on examination, with a copy of Flayderman’s Guide to Antique American Firearms and Their Values for enlightenment. It appears that the 1865 mark on the lower tang was used on sporting arms made using surplus Civil War military contract parts. The tang sight is a civilian feature, possibly factory installed, or an owner’s addition. The Model 1865 sporting arms were actually being made during the later years of the war, but expressly for the civilian market. These were all percussion ignition types. The later Model 1873 and 1882 used conventional center fire (or rimfire) cartridges, and were often sold with additional barrels in different calibers or lengths. John Spangler


# 13925 - Rare But Not-Matching P.38
8/1/2010
Ron Bear Creek, PA

Walther - p 38 ac45 - 9 mm - Blue - 2162c -

P 38 AC 45 Hi-- I just bought a Walther P 38 with a serial number of 2162 C on both the frame and the slide. There is a 140 with a series of lines on the frame next to the serial number. Under the barrel is a 3555 under which appears to be the letter h. the right side of the frame has the number 389 with the same series of lines over it. The locking block also has the same 389 w/lines on the side with a large * next to it. I read in one of the other answers a reference to a B block and an A block of numbers--could you explain that and maybe tell me what I have here as a WW II German pistol. Did Walther but it together and Proof it of did someone else do this---Thanks for even thinking about my question and some info would be greatly appreciated--Ron

Answer:
Ron, your frame was made at the FN plant in Belgium for the Walther company. The 140 with lines is the Waffenamt (weapons inspector) number for the inspector at the FN plant. If you look with a magnifying glass the number 389 under a set of lines is actually the number 359. This is the Waffenamt for the Walther company. The Waffenamt was placed on the slide, the barrel, and the locking block. Because the frame was made by another manufacturer it has the Waffenamt (inspector) stamp from that maker.

The parts that are serial numbered to the pistol are the slide, frame, barrel and locking block. The last two or three digits of the serial number should be stamped on the locking block. The other parts will all have the full serial number stamped on them. It sounds like the serial number on your barrel does not match the rest of the pistol.

The pistol was assembled at the Walther plant and the final proofing was also done there. The firing proof will be stamped on the slide, frame, barrel and locking block. It is eagle over a swastika. P38 collectors will pay a bit more for an all matching Walther with an FN frame because they are quite rare. Too bad that your barrel does not match. Marc


# 13874 - 120mm M865 TPCSDS-T Cartridge
8/1/2010
Steve, Atlantic, IA

Abrams - 120mm M-865 TPCSDS-T Cartridge - 120 Mm - Other - N/A -

Specs for 120mm M-865 TPCSDS-T Cartridge I have an M-865E2 projectile, a Case Base - and a wood lathe. What I need is the measurements for the Combustible Cartridge Case, Case Cover, and Cap Assembly. I want to mock up the complete cartridge. See this exploded view: www.fas.org/man/dod - 01/sys/land/m865.htm

Answer:
Steve is asking about a round used in the M1 Abrams tank’s 120mm (5 inch+/-) smoothbore gun. The TPCSDS-T may seem confusing, but to takers it makes perfect sense. This projectile is for Target Practice, and is “Cone Stabilized” with a “Discarding Sabot” and a “Tracer.” The actual projectile part is a large dart like steel rod with a cone on the rear to stabilize it, and at the same time degrade the ballistics to reduce the maximum range to make it safe on practice ranges).

The actual combat load would be FS- Fin Stabilized and instead of steel the penetrator rod would be depleted uranium or tungsten carbide that will just poke through a tank like it was made of paper. The Discarding Sabot is just a big wrapper that surrounds the penetrator to hold it in the cartridge and allow the gas pressure to push the sabot and penetrator out the barrel. As soon as the sabot is clear of the barrel is breaks up into several pieces and sheds away from the penetrator, allowing the penetrator to fly at unbelievable velocity.

This cartridge is very unusual, in that it does not use a conventional cartridge case. Instead it uses a steel base or cup to hold the primer and provide a rim for handling, and the powder charge is cast into a shape connecting the base and projectile. When it is loaded into the gun and fired, all that is left is a base cup, instead of a large brass casing. The use of the combustible cartridge case reduces weight of ammunition and the need for a space to store fired cases.

Steve got a good answer to his question over on the International Ammunition Association forum at http://iaaforum.org/forum3

Anyone interested in ammo of any type, especially big bore ammo, really needs to check that out and become a member of the IAA. (Full disclosure- We provide website services for them and act as webmaster for the main site.) John Spangler


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