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# 4765 - Replace Eddystone Barrel?
4/27/02
Stan Bainbridge Indiana

M1917 Eddystone - M1917 - 30.06 - full military length, no sporterizing - parkerized - 669729 -

ordinance bomb, ja on barrel, 3gm-k on stock by trigger on left side in box The rifle is in very good shape. The rifling in barrel is poor, though. I want to sell this rifle. Would rebarreling hurt me or help me in this case?

Answer:
Stan, your rifle's barrel has already been replaced once, the "JA" marking that you describe are the initials of the replacement barrels manufacturer, Johnson Automatics. Johnson Automatics is probably most famous for their M1941 Johnson rifle but they also manufactured replacement barrels for U.S. M1917 rifles among other things. If your bore is just a little dark and/or if it just has normal wear, I think that replacing the barrel is a bad idea. If the bore is dark and rusty with only traces of lands and grooves remaining, then installing a correct (Eddystone) replacement barrel may increase your rifles salability. When you inform prospective buyers that the barrel is a replacement, value will be lowered for some, others will not care. Marc


# 4648 - Germania .22 Training Rifle
4/27/02
Jerry, Nashville, TN

J. G. Anschutz - Germania Waffenwerk - .22 Short Single Shot - 1226 -

My Dad purchased this rifle after WWII. It looks like a military style rifle with what may be a bayonet slide and shoulder strap. The bolt is curved and it has a short stock (butt). Other markings are A. G. Zella Mehlis Thur. I am just interested in finding information about the rifle. Thanks.

Answer:
Jerry- There is an excellent book on Mauser Training Rifles published by Collector Grade Books that probably would help on this, but I have not yet added that to my library. Therefore I confess ignorance and am unable to help. It is undoubtedly one of a number of commercially made .22 rifles which were quite similar to the K98k Mauser service rifle for use in training soldiers, and quasi-military clubs and the like. Many countries had similar small bore versions of service rifles for training purposes. Contrary to what you hear from the TV news people (Quick name one, any one, with military service in any branch.....) military victory does not occur until the ground is occupied by a foot soldier with a rifle. Victories happen faster and last longer if the foot solider knows how to use a rifle, a habit picked up from long practice and excellent training. The U.S. Marine Corps understands this, but few others in our country. Some day we will pay a bloody price for sissifying and violence proofing our children, telling them guns are evil, instead of that evil people are a danger to be guarded against. When the smart bombs run out, and our few hundred aged aircraft are lost, or our dozen aircraft carriers are sunk, only the foot soldiers with rifles will defend our freedom. Better hope we have some, and it is not too soon to get marksmanship training back into high schools, like it was 40 years ago. John Spangler


# 4639 - Cartouches ( Stock Markings) On U.S. Military
4/27/02
Mel Kalifornia

Where can I find explanation / meanings of cartouche and other markings on U. S. military rifles ? I'm a new collector. Thanks.

Answer:
Mel- The various markings on U.S. military small arms are all basically for the purposes of identifying what they are, who made them, and if they have passed inspection. Specific details vary with the exact model and maker, but a 1795 Springfield will have markings on the various parts to identify the maker. Workers were paid on a piece work basis, and this allowed them to get credit for their labor, and also allow deductions for the cost of the raw materials if the parts failed inspection. An inspector or sub inspector would also mark parts when they met their approval, or stamp them with a "C" for "condemned" if they failed inspection. When barrels were tested (proof fired) they were marked with whatever the current marks were to show that it was okay to use. When the completed arm was inspected and accepted, the Master Armorer or some flunky working for him would stamp his initials on the stock, opposite the lock. The inspector cartouche initials can be checked to make sure they are appropriate for the date, and in the case of some guns, if that inspector worked at that specific maker.

Procedures remained basically unchanged until the adoption of breechloaders following the Civil War. The barrels were still proof tested in the traditional way, but since there were receivers, breechblocks and other parts involved, another proof test for the completed weapon was needed, leading the to stamping of a large P (almost always within a circle) behind the trigger guard.

Around World War I, the U.S. military began to receive M1903 rifles from both Springfield and Rock Island, and a few parts (most often the stocks) had a small RI on the tip to indicate manufacture at Rock Island. When the M1917 "Enfield" was adopted, there were serious concerns about parts being fully interchangeable, and the predecessor British Pattern 1914 rifles were officially considered to be three distinct variations and not fully interchangeable, thus the practice began of marking the maker initials on nearly every part. W for Winchester, R for Remington's Ilion, NY, factory, and E for Remington's operation at Eddystone, PA. I have not yet seen any documentation requiring this to continue on Model 1917 rifles, so it may just have been a case of "well, we did it on the Pattern 1914 we just stopped making, and since this is basically the same gun, I guess we should continue doing it."

In the 1930s, the Ordnance department began to mark some parts with a drawing number. This included the blueprint number followed by a dash and another number indicating the revision of the basic drawing. This allowed excellent identification of parts which failed, and sorting of parts to get rid of those deemed defective or obsolete. This system was used in great detail on the M1 Garand, with the addition of letters to indicate if the part was made by Springfield Armory or Winchester Repeating Arms. For certain critical parts (receivers, bolts and barrels), additional letter/number codes were marked to indicate the source and batch of steel ("heat lot") used. Thus, if a part was made to a certain specification it may be fine from a design viewpoint. But if they discovered that a certain lot of steel from Republic Steel (or Bethlehem or someone else) was involved in a lot of failure, they could pull all the bolts made with that lot of steel.

During WW2, the manufacture of the M1 Carbine began with about a dozen prime contractors, and hundreds of subcontractors. For the carbine the Ordnance Department dropped the need to mark parts with drawing numbers and heat lots. However, they did require that all parts (except springs and pins) be marked with a letter code to indicate the maker. Often this would include a letter indicating the prime contractor and the subcontractor, if one was involved.

The various markings can help identify if parts are "original and correct" to a gun, or if they have been mixed during a later overhaul. Of course, many times, especially with M1 carbines, parts from one maker were shipped to another to keep production going if that maker was running short of a certain part.

During overhauls, additional marks were applied, including another "P" after final proof testing, and another cartouche indicating where the work was done. In the 1960s, they began to use electric pencils to engrave a date and location code on the receiver legs of M1 Garands which were overhauled.

While the general nature of markings are pretty simple, the exact meaning and figuring out which are "correct" requires a lot of research. I would recommend you purchase reference books on the guns you are interested in. I highly recommend Robert Reilly's U.S. Military Small Arms 1816-1865 and his U.S. Martial Flintlocks for early arms. Al Frasca's two volume "The .45-70 Springfield", and Frank Mallory's Krag Rifle Story cover those specialties. Bill Brophy's The Springfield 1903 Rifles is best for the M903 Springfield rifles, although Nick Ferris has the best coverage on Rock Islands. Scott Duff's books are the accepted standards for M1 Garands, and Larry Ruth's two volume "War Baby" set covers the M1 carbines. Some people might like the small "For Collectors Only" books from North Cape Publications, and they are okay, but in my opinion not nearly as good as their larger (and more expensive) counterparts mentioned above. However, the North Cape book on the Model 1917 is best on that model. There are a number of books on U.S. martial arms by a Mr. Harrison, and in my opinion they are so seriously flawed as to be worthless, but some people believe every word in them. John Spangler


# 4754 - Remington Model 2 Rolling Block Rifle
4/24/02
Michael

Remington - ? ? - .22 - 22 - Blue - not found -

This is an old octagon barrel 22. It appears to have a single "trap door" for one shot only loaded from the back of the receiver. I know nothing else about it. What is the model and approx. age of this firearm? What's it worth?

Answer:
Michael, my guess is that you have a Remington Model 2 rolling block rifle. Remington manufactured the Model 2 in many rimfire calibers from 1873 to 1909 and also some centerfire calibers. Original Model 2 finish was blued with a case hardened frame. Values for these rifles range from about $100 to over $500 depending on condition. Marc


# 4634 - French Mutzig Flintlock Or Percussion Musket
4/24/02
Clifton Williams

Charleville - 1763 - .69 - 41" - Nickel, Brushed Steel? -

Mle Rle De Charleville; Mutzig; star above a V; crown above a V I recently had two old rifles given to me by my great Aunt. I can only guess that it is a Charleville 1763 since it is the only French rifle that resembles it (that I have seen a picture of). Only my rifle is percussion cap, not a flint lock. Everything else, except the action, resembles that of the pictures of a Charleville 1763. My great Aunt brought it back with here from Germany during WWII.

Answer:
Clifton- We admire your great Aunt's taste. Instead of dainty teacups and the like, she brought back a musket! French military muskets are a confusing breed, with most of them looking very similar from about 1763 through about 1840 when they switched to a back action lock. In that time, they made continuous changes to minor details, and busily modified earlier types to the latest Parisian fashion dictates. They also had special variations for use by elite units. (Most French persons seem consider themselves far more elite than they deserve anyway. Perhaps instead of objecting to our fighting terrorists, they should recall that it was the American who saved their butts from having to learn to speak German at least twice.) Special units included Royal Guards, Lancers, Hussars, Dragoons, and the Gendarmerie, etc. Mutzig was one of several French arsenals, Charleville and Saint Etienne being the best known. The official names of the arsenals changed from "Royal" to "Imperial" while that little short fella who ignored Russian weather forecasts ran the show, then back to Royal, and I believe returned briefly to Imperial for a while under Napolean III. Therefore the precise letters of the abbreviation prior to the arsenal name are significant to narrowing down the date from either Manufacture Imperiale or Manufacture Royale de Armes de [arsenal location]. If you want to send a photo and the barrel length and all markings on the lock and the barrel, we may be able to research further in a French language series of books to see if we can pin down the precise model or date of manufacture. John Spangler


# 4624 - M1 Carbine Stamped Trigger Housing
4/24/02
Jason, McKinney, TX

M1 Carbine - .30 M1 Carbine -

None I am assembling a parts M1 Carbine. I recently purchased a new Springfield armory receiver, but the trigger group was given to me by a good friend. The trigger group has a combination of stamped and milled parts - that is, the trigger guard is stamped and the upper portion is unlike any I have ever seen. Is this a commercial trigger group? Other parts my friend gave me are military - upper and lower stock with proper cartouches, etc. - all came from the same weapon.

Answer:
Jason- I suspect you have one of the trigger housings made by the "stamp-braze" method. As a means of speeding production and using less critical tools, some trigger housings were made this way, instead of being machined from a solid piece of steel. This method used several layers of sheet metal stamped out so that when the various parts were sandwiched together and brazed into a solid assembly, there was relatively little machining left to do. These were made by/for IBM Corporation, Standard Products, Rockola, Underwood and Quality Hardware, so they will be found with a manufacturer's code marking for those makers. While not as pretty as those made from a solid piece of steel, they work just as well and helped win the war. John Spangler


# 4767 - Savage 99 Manufacture Date
4/20/02
Ron Euclid OH

Savage - 99 - 300 Savage - E - 673495 -

My father gave me this rifle I want to know what year it was made

Answer:
Ron, the original Savage Model 1899 Sporting Rifle was manufactured by the Savage Arms Company, Utica, New York, from 1899 to about 1917 when production was suspended due to World War I. After the first World War ended Savage resumed production and re-designated the rifle "Model 99". At the end of 1941, Model 99 production was again suspended for the duration of World War II. Production resumed after World War II and the one millionth Model 99 was presented to the National Rifle Association on the 22nd of March 1960. I only have date of manufacture data on Model 99 rifles with serial numbers lower than 398400, that were manufactured before 1941. Since your serial number is higher than 398400 but lower than 1000000, I can tell you that your rifle was manufactured somewhere between 1941 and 1960. By averaging production numbers for the years between 1941 and 1960 I will guess that your rifle was manufactured in the late 1940's or early 1950's. Remember that if I am wrong, as always our free advise and answers at OldGuns.net are offered with a full money back guarantee. Marc


# 4797 - Confederate Enfield Musket
4/20/02
William, Massachusetts

I have a .58 cal. rifle-musket, "Tower" percussion lock, marked "Barnett" and "London," in excellent, "shootable" condition. Have owned it since early 1950's. Stock is stamped "Army of the Confederacy" and "Texas Volunteer Militia." Also, apparently a person's name is stamped. Barrel has three bands, and is about 39" long. With ramrod. Brass trigger guard.

I saw similar arms at Fort St. Catherine, Bermuda many years ago. Apparently these were smuggled to the Confederacy through Bermuda.

Is this a common item? Does it have much value? (I realize photos, etc. are necessary for a better evaluation.) I'd like to learn more about it, and if it has significant value, perhaps offer it for sale.

Answer:
William- Huge numbers of .577 Enfield rifle muskets (often called "Tower" as many were so marked) were imported through the blockade for Confederate use. Many did pass through Bermuda, where they were delivered by regular merchant ships, and then transferred to the faster "blockade runners" for a dash through to Southern ports like Charleston, SC, or Wilmington, NC, or a few others. Larger numbers or Enfields were purchased for use by Union troops. The entire British Army was also armed with Enfields, and did not relinquish those for their American cousins to use in their petty squabbles. Many Enfields, but not all were used by Confederates.

The difficulty for the collector or historian lies in identifying possible Confederate used pieces from the others. In my opinion, the best way to tell that one is NOT a Confederate piece is to find blatantly obvious markings proclaiming it to be Confederate. It appears that yours has not just one, but two sets of marks intended to lure a buyer into thinking that this has just GOT to be a Confederate gun. Apparently this is done in the belief that if someone is gullible enough to buy a suspect piece, additional markings would surely convince them that it is REALLY a Confederate piece, and from TEXAS, no less. In my opinion there is less than 1% chance that the marking are authentic, and probably less than a 10% chance that the gun was used by anyone in Confederate service. The demand for Confederate material, usually at very high prices, has been used as an excuse for some scoundrels to flood the market with fakes, frauds and forgeries. Some are capable of fooling only the most gullible, and others which have fooled experts. Much of this began just before the Civil War Centennial in 1960, and it has only gotten worse.

We would be glad to look at photos, and perhaps change our opinion, but as we value our reputation, we are very reluctant to proclaim anything as Confederate unless we are certain of it. On the bright side, we did have one authentic Confederate Enfield several years ago.

Value of an verifiably authentic Confederate used Enfield will probably be in the $2,000 and up range. A non-Confederate used example would be more like $750-2000 depending on condition. Addition of fake Confederate markings would lower the value in my opinion, or at least not enhance it, although some con-artist may be willing to pay a premium hoping to find another one of those folks P.T. Barnum described as being born every minute.

We would be glad to help you sell it, but only if we offer it in terms that we are willing to defend as accurate. We must protect our buyer's interests, as well as those of our consignors, and above all, our reputation. John Spangler


# 4798 - 1903 US Rock Island Never Degreased
4/20/02

RIA - 1903 -

I got a model 1903 US Rock Island arsenal from a hand me down serial 181686 mint shape never degreased only have hunting guns don't know what I got here can you help?

Answer:
Sounds like something interesting, but would need to know at least the serial number and the date on the barrel behind the front sight. Also need to know if the stock has "finger grooves" on the side between the receiver and the band that has the sling swivel. I assume it has and upper band also with a bayonet lug.

IF 100% original, correct and unaltered, it is a pretty good collectors pieces. However, most of the early guns got rebuilt one or more times which hurts the value, and some got used quite a bit before they got stuck away in grease. Obviously those are worth less. Your rifle is a "low number" with the less desirable heat treatment on the receiver which some people are scared to shoot, so most shooters will have little interest. CMP program is selling low number Rock Island rifles which have been rebuilt for $300. We have sold an exceptionally nice one, nearly untouched and unfired, for about $1300. Most will fall towards the lower end of the range, but if you can provide answers to questions above and maybe some photos, we can probably tell you more. John Spangler


# 4618 - Krag 1907 Engineer Carbine 6.5x55mm
4/17/02
Charlie , Moncton, N. B Canada

Krag Jorgenson - Engineers , Date Stamp [1907] - 6.5x55 - 20 Inch, S - Blue - 779 -

I was told this was an engineers rifle , but I am not sure as I can find little info on this . the rifle is in new condition, less than a box of shell, s put threw it.

Answer:
Charlie- Since it is 6.5x55 caliber instead of .30-40, we must be talking about a Norwegian Krag. Frank Mallory's superb "The Krag Rifle Story" has a brief section on the foreign variations. He notes that the Model 1895 Cavalry Carbine, 1897 Mountain Artillery and Engineer Carbine, 1904 Engineer Carbine, 1907 Field Artillery Carbine, and 1912 Carbine were in the same serial number grouping, starting at 1. The model 1912 had a 24 inch barrel, but the others all had 20.5 inch barrels, and appear to differ mainly in details of stocks and bands. Apparently a bunch of the M1912 carbines hit the surplus market in the late 1950s, generally with poor bores, but the others seem to be scarce. Of course, in Canada about all you can do with them is sit there and fill out the paperwork for registration and then wait for eventual confiscation, so it will be safer for criminals. However, I have heard that many Canadian gun owners have poor canoe skills and tragically lost all of their guns in the middle of various lakes in canoe accidents. Too bad. John Spangler


# 4619 - Japanese Arisaka Type 38 6.5mm Rifle
4/17/02
Mike, Sarasota, FL

Arisaka - Type 38, 22nd Series - 6.5 M M - 32-inches - Blue, Patina - 15369 -

I received this rifle from my father and have shot it once after having had it inspected by a good gunsmith. What is a good reference for disassembly and general care? Also, how is the cleaning rod removed from the rifle? There seems to be a switch to depress on the right side of the foregrip, just ahead of the clamp ring(? ) for the stock, but maybe this is how the clamp is removed.

Answer:
Mike- Japanese rifles have always been very collectible, but after many years of being incredibly cheap, they are starting to climb in price, at least the good ones. The best reference on Japanese rifles for collectors is "Military Rifles of Japan" by Fred Honeycutt and Patt Anthony, now in its fifth edition. Collectors also can learn a lot from a collector newsletter "Banzai" (see link on our links page). For just general information on disassembly or maintenance, the NRA Firearms Disassembly Guide on rifles will suffice. In fact, general disassembly is pretty much the same as any of the Mauser type rifles, the 1903 Springfield or the 1917, except for the bolt guts which function in a manner peculiar to the Arisaka. Mechanically adept folks will have not trouble, but it sounds like your mechanical skills are at the same dismal level as my wife, so you might need some help. Jap rifle cleaning rods are usually secured in one of two ways. Some are threaded on the end, and screw into a plate hidden in the stock. Others have a square catch button on the bottom of the stock just behind the upper band. Push that and you can pull the rod out. I think the "switch" on the right side of the stock ahead of the band is the band spring that just hold the band in place, with nothing to do with the cleaning rod. John Spangler


# 4749 - S&W Model 21 (Model of 1950 Military)
4/17/02

S&W - 1950 - 44 Special - 6 & 1/2 - S 142028 -

Hi, I have a S&W Model 1950 44 Special in the Black box. It is new and unfired. It is a pre 1950 and does not have 1950 on the barrel which is 6 1/2 inches long. It is also a target version serial # S 142028. Please give me a value or reference.

Answer:
The Model 21 (.44 Hand Ejector Fourth Model - Model of 1950 Military) is a very scarce revolver it was the successor to the Model 1926 .44 Military built on the 5-screw square butt N frame. Smith and Wesson manufactured only about 1,200 Model 21 revolvers from 1950 to 1964. These were large frame six-shot revolvers with a blue or nickel finish, walnut grips, fixed sights equipped with 4, 5, or 6.5 inch barrels. Revolvers with factory nickel finish are very rare. Model 21 barrels have a shrouded ejector rod, these were normally only used with magnum calibers. Model 21 serial numbers fall in the S75000 to S263000 range, your serial number falls within this range. I have seen values for these revolvers listed as high as $3500 for examples that are NIB (new in the box). The Blue Book of Gun Values lists Model 21 values at $1575.00 for examples in 98% condition and $1750.00 for examples in 100% condition. Revolvers with 6.5 inch barrels command a 50% premium. Marc


# 4710 - Connecticut Valley Arms Copy.
4/17/02
Chris - McAllen, TX.

CVA - Unknown - .44 - 8" - unknown - appears nickel - 3753 -

There is an image of some tall ships with the inscription "ENGAGED 19 MAY 1843" etched into the cylinder. On top of the barrel: "CONNETICUT VALLEY ARMS - MADE IN ITALY" On the right side of barrel: "A. S. M. BLACK POWDER ONLY CAL .44 MADE IN ITALY" I want to know if this revolver is an original or a reproduction and what model it is. Thanks.

Answer:
Chris, your revolver is an Italian copy imported by CVA (Connecticut Valley Arms). For more information take a look at the OldGuns.net FAQ. Marc


# 4741 - Stevens-Springfield Model 15
4/13/02
John

Springfield - 15 - .22 Short Long Or Long Rifle -

Do you have any information regarding a J. Stevens, Springfield Model 15 .22 short long or long rifle? It would be greatly appreciated.

Answer:
John, Stevens introduced their Stevens-Springfield Model 15 in early 1938, it was advertised in the spring 1938 Sears and Roebuck catalog priced at $3.19. Stevens designed the Model 15 primarily for the boys' rifle market, it was a simple single shot design which was locked by turning the bolt-handle base down ahead of the receiver. The action was much shorter than the other Stevens designs, allowing the bolt handle to lie almost directly above the trigger. Typical Model 15 rifles had a 22 inch round barrel and weighed about 3.75 pounds. Over-all length was 37 inches. The plain stock was made of birch stained to dark walnut, the metal was finished blue. Sights were blade front with open adjustable rear. Marc


# 4615 - Enfield 1853 Two Band Rifle
4/13/02
Steve, New Bern, NC

Enfield - 1853 - ? - 33 - Blued - N/A -

lock plate - crown symbol, V-R, 1854butt plate - V YW41 80 This is a model 1853 2nd pattern (with band springs) but has only a 33 inch barrel and 2 bands. Can you help identify this weapon?

Answer:
Steve- Sorry, we cannot help on that one. There are a number of short version of the Pattern 1853 .577 rifles, but a quick check shows that most were adopted in 1856-58, so the 1854 date rules out those options. I would suggest a careful search of "The British Soldier's Firearms: From Smoothbore to Smallbore 1850-1864" by Dr., C.H. Roads. That is an extremely well done study of British percussion long arms, including regulation military patterns and also colonial , volunteer and commercial variations. John Spangler


# 4593 - Hopkins & Allen Safety Police Revolver
4/13/02
Nancy , Bath, Pa

Hopkins And Allen - Safety Police - 32 - 5 Shot - 3 Inch - Nickel -

Says USA pat Aug 21 1905 - My dad has this gun in his possession. What can you tell us about it. Were many produced. It appears to be in good shape.

Answer:
Nancy- We do not know much about Hopkins & Allen arms, except that they made an awful lot of the, usually of very modest (or inferior) quality, and there is almost no collector interest in them However, Charles E. Carder must be a masochist, as he has written an excellent reference book on Hopkins & Allen- "H&A Revolvers & Pistols" which should be an excellent reference for this topic. Carder is also author of "Side by Sides of the World" cataloging just about everything known about the hundred and hundreds of different makers of old (and usually unrespected) shotguns. While the Colt and Winchester elitists may giggle at his endeavors, his efforts fill some tremendous gaps in arms collecting knowledge, and cover guns that were owned by hundreds of thousands of Americans, John Spangler


# 4734 - Markings On A C96
4/10/02
Bob, Sunbury, OH

Mauser - C-96 - 9mm - 4 Inches (approx) - Blue - 85053 -

1) (Nazi) Eagle/SU4 (on the right side of the barrel extension/chamber)along with WWI military proofmark2) S. OP. I.55. R. (on the front of the pistol grip strap) I have a reworked WWI Mauser C-96 pistol with a shortened barrel, fixed rear sight, (Nazi) Eagle/SU4 marking on the right of the barrel chamber, and S. OP.55. R. markings on the front of the grip strap. The wood grips have a "9" carved into them. The pistol came in a soft (pigskin) holster with no magazine pouch and no maker's markings. I'd appreciate any information you can give me on this pistol - especially the Nazi eagle and police markings. Thank you.

Answer:
Bob, I have been unable to find an explanation of your "Eagle/SU4" markings. Your pistols configuration is like many Red Nine C96 pistols that were reworked after WWI with a short barrel and fixed rear sight for the Treaty of Versailles. References indicate that these pistols should be stamped "1920" to show official authorized use under the Treaty of Versailles which prohibited the manufacture of pistols after 1921 with barrels longer than 3.94 inches or of a caliber greater than 8mm. One possible explanation of the markings on your frontstrap is: Schutzpolizei in the administrative district of Oppeln precinct 1 weapon number 55. I do not especially like this explanation because I have been unable to find what the "R." stands for and also because my references tell me that the marking for Oppeln precinct should be "Op." not "OP." Maybe one of our visitors will read this and send in a more satisfactory answer your question, if I get one I will post it. Marc


# 4597 - Pinfire Revolver
4/10/02
John, North Yorkshire, United Kingdom

Not Known - Pinfire Revolver - 9mm - 6 1/4 Inches Or 15.5cm - Blue - 2221 -

This double action revolver appears to be European. The barrel is cylindrical with a 1" hexagonal section adjacent to the 6 shot cylinder. Three of the faces of the hexagonal section are stamped:1)Upper Left - Eagle with upraised splayed wings over SP in a dotted oval ring.2)Top - 9mm3)PDL in a dotted oval ring. The eagle stamp is repeated on the cylinder. The serial number is located on right side of the frame below the cylinder and forward from the trigger guard. The cylinder does not swing out and there is an ejector rod offset below and to the right of the barrel with part of the rear frame hinged to allow ejection. There is some decorative scrollwork on the rear of the frame. The grips appear to be walnut and there is a finger rest below the rear of the trigger guard. Overall, this looks a bit like a military weapon but there is no ring for a lanyard and the metal plate on the base of the butt has no provision for one. If needed I can supply digital images. I would like to know who manufactured this pistol, in what country and roughly when.

Answer:
John- Sorry, pinfires are pretty confusing unless you can physically examine them. About the best we can tell you is that it is probably German (based on the proof marks) and like most pinfires, it probably dates to 1865-1890 or so. John Spangler


# 4590 - Haenel Gun Maker
4/10/02
John -- Yakima, WA.

C. G. Haenel - 1888 Commission Rifle - 8X57 Mm - 25" - Blue - 14788 -

Integrated rib, express sights, double set triggers, light engraving, receiver ring "dovetailed" for sight mount. Sirs --I have acquired the above rifle, in good condition (but probably refinished). I am curious about the maker. The metal work is meticulous, although the set triggers & sear are a bit unreliable at this point (big surprise!!). The work is attractive, but the inletting is atrocious. What do I have here? Can you provide some history on the maker: the maker is listed in the "blue book, " so I presume he can't be that obscure, though it has been brutally hard for me to find any info on the internet. I found a reference to Haenel in ___________'s standard work on rifle actions, the reference being to the Dope Bag section of the Rifleman, September, 1974, but that is the best that I can come up with. 20Your help would be greatly appreciated. John Jay

Answer:
John- Sounds like a very nice rifle, typical of the fine sporters made from military actions by the talented German gunsmiths prior to WW1. However, unlike most, this one was not a conversion of a military action, but was made as a sporter. C.G. Haenel Waffen und Fahrrad-fabrik of Suhl, Thuringen, Germany is known to have made sporter rifles on the 1888 Mauser action, but not any service rifles. I believe that fahrrad means bicycle, so this is another example of arms and cycles being made by a manufacturer, as both were highly dependent on precision metal working and using advanced materials. (Iver Johnson Arms & Cycle works is the obvious American example, and in England, the Birmingham Small Arms Association made BSA motorcycles. I think there was a French outfit that made both as well, but I have so little appreciation for all things French that I don't feel like trying to research that any further). Haenel made various guns for the commercial market, and during WW2 was a barrel maker for K98k production and probably other weapons related items as well. John Spangler


# 4737 - Winchester Modle 77
4/6/02
Brian Jax FL

Winchester - 77 - 22lr - 22 - ? -

I can't find a serial number!! Where should I be looking? This is my first rifle and I'm trying to find out any info available.

Answer:
Brian Winchester manufactured the Model 77 Sporting Rifle from 1955 to 1963, total production reached about 217,200. The first Model 77 (serial number 1,001) was delivered to warehouse stock about April 21, 1955 and was shipped May 13, 1955. The Model 77 was 40.35 inches in length, weighed 5.55 pounds empty and had a 22 inch barrel. The stock was plain walnut with a semi-beavertail forend and a checkered composition type buttplate. The receiver top was milled with rails for scope mounts, the trigger guard and floorplate were nylon. Model 77-s were available with either a detachable box 8 round magazine or a 15 round tubular magazine under the barrel. The box-magazine version was less popular than the tube-magazine version and was discontinued in 1962. Originally model 77 serial numbers were located on the front right corner of the receiver, in late 1955 the location was moved to the left side of the receiver, then toward the rear of the receiver. Rifles manufactured after 1959 were not numbered. Marc


# 4642 - Krag Carbine
4/6/02
Bruce Lee's Summit Missouri

US Krag - 1894 Carbine - 30-40 - 22" - Blue - 1545 -

the #'s on the barrel are '1894 SPRINGFIELD ARMORY 1545'.I have been trying to find out more information on this rifle. The OAL of the rifle is 41-7/8". The barrel length is 22". It has the flip-up adjustable rear sight, not stepped style. The sight profile is high on the forward end. I understand this style was discontinued in 1896. It has the door in the butt plate, which I understand was probably a modification. I have been unable to find information regarding the serial number of this rifle. But resources may lead me to believe this is a Model 1892 Carbine. Can you help me to further identify this gun? What were production quantities?

Answer:
Bruce- Early Krag production was done in large blocks as there was considerable modification of machinery required to change between rifle and carbine production. The entire early production (perhaps 10,000 plus) was exclusively rifles, so your gun started life as a rifle, not a carbine. Then they made a bunch of carbines, then another lot of rifles, etc. You can check Frank Mallory's superb "Krag Rifle Story" for further clarification. (We sell these on our books page). Krags have always been very popular hunting guns, and replacement barrels 22 inches long can be made from readily available M1903 Springfield barrels, so many of the apparent carbines are in fact cut down rifles. John Spangler


# 4605 - Tear Gas Gun/ Gas Baton
4/6/02
Timothy D. Gilbert

Pittsburgh Federal Laboratories Inc. - unknown - unknown - appr. six inches - Solid Brass - none -

on the butt is pressed/punched in PITTSBURGH. PA. U. S. A. FEDERAL LABORATORIES. INC. On the side, below the push-button trigger:PAT. SEPT. 15, 1925 DEC. 15, 1925 DEC. 29, 1925 I do not know anything about this piece. It is shaped like a billy-club, made of solid brass with leather strapping around the "weapons end". It unscrews about 1/3 the way up the handle for loading of some type of cartridge (measures for about a 24 gage shell; centerfire with an opening at the end about the size of at 32cal. ). There is a bar inside blocking the opening at the end. There is a cocking, pull rod on the butt of the piece and a safety that slides over the push-button trigger. The firing spring and pin appear to be made of stainless steel. The entire piece is about nine inches in length. Can anyone tell me about this item?

Answer:
Timothy- We sure get asked about some strange stuff, which implies that we must be strange people expected to know about it. This is among the stranger items. I confess up front that I am not exactly sure what it is, but will share my guesses anyway. First, Federal Laboratories is known to have made various types of guns for firing tear gas type munitions, mainly for sale to law enforcement agencies. I suspect that this is a variation intended for combination use as either a billy club or for firing tear gas for riot control use. I have no idea how common they might be, or how practical they were, or what type ammunition they used. John Spangler


# 4577 - Police Luger Markings
4/3/02
Steve, Downs, IL

DWM - Luger - 9mm Luger - 4" - Blue - 2069 -

S. W. I. 1294. on front strap of frame. dated 1921 on top of frame. all visible parts marked with either a 2069 or just a 69.2 proof marks that look like the outline of a bird over the letters WM on the side of the receiver followed by what looks like a smaller and more jagged outline of a bird within an oval. what looks like a cursive lowercase b on the front of the receiver just below the barrel. magazines are steel with aluminum bottoms marked 2069 1 and 2holster is marked Otto Sindel Berlin 1941 and is in excellent condition except for the closing strap, which is worn. This luger has about 85% of the blue remaining, with mostly holster wear. My great uncle took this gun off of a dead German during WWII and it has been in my fathers possession ever since. From what I have been able to learn, it is most likely a police gun. I would like to find out something of the history behind this gun. I would also like to have some idea of its current value. Thank you, Steve

Answer:
Steve, it sounds like you have a very nice Luger, examples with 2 matching magazines are getting very difficult to find. My research indicates that your Luger is police issue. There is a pistol with similar markings pictured on page 104 of Gortz and Bryans book "German Small Arms Markings From Authentic Sources". Gortz and Bryans tell us that the markings you describe stand for Prussian police "Schutzpolizei in the administrative district of Wiesbaden, precinct I weapon number 1294". Precinct I ("I. Deinstort") is assumed to have been in Wiesbaden proper. Values for a Luger in the condition that you describe with holster and 2 matching magazines are in the $1000 to $1200 range, let us know if you ever decide to sell. Marc


# 4594 - Remington M1903A1 National Match?
4/3/02
Nelson, Fayetteville Pa.

Springfield - '03 A1 "National Match" - .30-06 -

An antique arms dealer that I've dealt with a time or two and found to be reliable is now advertising a "National Match" '03 A1 that has a Remington made action with a 1937 S. A. bbl. How can this be? Remington didn't start making '03's 'til 1942! Were some post WWII nat'l match rifles assembled with Remington actions and pre-war bbls?

Answer:
Nelson- Only on very rare occasions do I state that something always or never happened. However, Remington NEVER made any National Match M1903 series rifles. Following WW2, when the National Matches were revived in 1951, there was some interest at Springfield in providing suitable NM rifles again. However, the M1903 was no longer in production and "everyone knew" that the M1 Garand could not be made to shoot as accurately as a M1903. Springfield engineers drew up plans to use some of the huge stockpile of unissued M1903A3 rifles as the basis for NM rifles. These had a few modifications, the most notable being the removal of the issue M1903A3 rear sight and installation of a Redfield Olympic slight on the left side of the receiver. This was an excellent quality sight, top of the line equipment for target shooters of the era. However, the engineers may have been highly educated and well paid, but they clearly did not know squat about rifle shooting. When built as designed, the M1903A3 National Match rifles ended up with a great rear sight that could be installed in the shooter's choice of two positions. In the forward position, the sight blocked the clip loading slot, so that was impossible to load the rifle with a stripper clip during the rapid fire stage of competition. In the rear position, the sight interfered with opening the bolt handle, making the rifle completely useless. The late Bill Brophy was among the shooters who pointed out this minor problem, and the project was quietly killed after only 140 were produced in 1954, making it among the rarest of all M1903 rifle variations. The M1903A3NM used the original M1903A3 barrels, presumably selected by star gage/air gage screening, not pre-war NM barrels. Stocks were standard M1903A3 straight grip stocks, not the full pistol grip "C" stocks of the M1903A1.

I suspect that your rifle was assembled by a previous owner for use in National Match style competition, and probably is a good shooter, but it is absolutely positively NOT a M1903A1 National Match rifle, regardless of what the dealer may say, or believe.

Anyone interested in M1903 rifles MUST invest in a copy of Bill Brophy's massive and definitive "The Springfield 1903 Rifles", and probably Clark Campbell's excellent book "The '03 Era" as well. John Spangler


# 4596 - Cane Gun
4/3/02
Virgil, Tombstone, AZ

GSA - walking cane - 22 RF or percussion - 27? - Bluing, with wooden, hi polished handle - none -

On shorter, separate barrel, it says the following around the bottom: /GSA\ stop noice pollution \ / Made in Australia then on other side: sound muffler .22RF 1000 f/s non-silencer No other markings found anywhere. This a true walking cane with a percussion cap spring loaded bolt, firing action, just below the wooden, curved handle, using thumb to release bolt from slotted, locking notch to fire. The lower part of cane or staff, measuring 26 1/2" - 27" appears to be the barrel, dirty with black powder. The muzzle opening is @ 11/16 ". It has a rubber cap on muzzle tip to appear as it was cane bottom. There is a separate barrel of some sort, with the markings above, @5 5/16" in length with threading on both ends, one end narrowed down to a smaller opening with coarser threads, the other end full opening with finer threads. This is the separate piece with the markings on it. Can't see how this piece is attached to the rest of the cane. What does this appear to be? A percussion-cap cane gun? And what is the separate piece (with markings)and how would it be used or adapted. It appears to be a part of the cane, because we have two of these and each one has it's separate piece with it. This is a real puzzler?

Answer:
Virgil- We do not know anything about this specific gun. However, cane guns and sword canes have been popular for about 150 years. Although not terribly practical, they do give an elderly or handicapped person some means of self defense against predators, both two legged or four legged. (Of course, we think that a few hours getting a concealed carry permit and investment in a Glock would be a much more effective life insurance policy.) Another less common use of cane guns was reportedly as a means of collecting wildlife specimens, using a shot load instead of a ball cartridge. The markings on your piece suggest that it is probably a 20th century product. I am not sure what the status of post 1898 cartridge firing cane guns might be with the friendly BATF folks, but a prospective purchaser might want to check to ensure that they are not restricted in some way prior to purchasing. John Spangler


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